WOW-Tomb of Battle

[Takamari]

I have always said, "Nothing from the tome of battle, it seems like too much work, too broken, and I don't have it."

Well, I borrowed if from a friend, I'm a poor college student, get off me, lol. I read through the classes and abilities and was awed. I now see why eveyone loves that book so much. I have not done any of the crunching, but I'm in love with the swordsage and partial to the warblade. Some of the general feats are awesome too.

Though, I have a question. You can choose manuvers from any of the schools that are available to the class, correct?

So, for those people who have crunced the numbers, which of the three is the best? I can see the potency of each, but I figure it is either the swordsage or the warblade.

Edit: Please forgive my horrible spelling mistake. I try, but I was very tired. I tested out of most english lit and comp, but when it comes to grammar and spelling, I suck.

[Bears With Lasers]

Argh. A tome is a book. A tomb is where you put dead people.

The ToB classes are pretty well-balanced compared to each other. I'd put the Crusader on top, actually, followed by the Swordsage and then the Warblade.

[Zincorium]

First off, please, TOME of battle. Or ToB. Or book of nine swords. But there is no tomb anywhere in the name.

Yes, you can choose maneuvers from any of those that are specified as being accessible by your chosen class, or any at all if you're using the feat that gives you one.

As far as what is 'best', that heavily depends on character concept, but I think warblade and swordsage are equal in their respective arenas. Crusader has a solid concept and decent execution, but their lack of maneuvers kind of dulls the appeal for me personally.

[Bears With Lasers]

"Lack of maneuvers"? Devoted Spirit and White Raven are definitely top-tier schools.

[Zincorium]

"Lack of maneuvers"? Devoted Spirit and White Raven are definitely top-tier schools.

Not saying they aren't. But at the end of the progression you only have four available at any one time, and they're chosen randomly at the start of combat, and then you have to cycle through if you don't get the one that'd be most useful. I don't like that, I'd honestly rather have the 7 of a warblade that I can count on having every single battle. Also, you only get three disciplines out of the nine that are available overall, if any of the others would be useful you have to burn a feat or dip into another class to make them available.

To sum it up, they don't have a lack of good choices for them to pick, but they don't have the option to be versatile.

[Tengu]

After reading the maneuver cards that are available for download somewhere on Wizards' website, I thought "hey, maybe DND is not such a bad game after all".

So yeah, ToB rocks.

[Bears With Lasers]

No, crusaders are made to be tanks--and they do that better than anyone.

The random maneuver granting/refreshing is actually advantageous, because it takes no actions. Extra Granted Maneuver helps; with it, you're bound to have the ones you want either at the start or in a round or two.

[Lord Tataraus]

Crusader is amazing as a tank, I'm partial to swordsage because I like to play sneaky-type characters. I never player basher-type like warblade or crusader, though crusader is amazing in a low-magic campaign, he's the one keeping the players alive.

[Yuki Akuma]

The problem with Crusaders: "Oh no, I only have a fifth of my maximum HP left! One or two attacks will drop me! I sure hope my god grants me one of my maneuvers that allows me to heal myself by whacking my enemy! *is granted White Raven Tactics* ...Well, ****."

Then again, I'm biased. I don't like the fact that their devotion is, for some reason, channeled through random maneuvers and intense rage.

[Ryuuk]

I look at it as the Crusader being so devote, that he puts his well being in the hands of whoever he worships. In his eyes, its all part of a greater scheme which may seem random at times, but that is simply because he can't see the whole picture as well as whatever grants him his maneuvers can.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I've always found the Warblade truly awesome. Why? Diamond Mind + Iron Heart Surge = goodly defensive win. Oh, and all the nasty offensive stuff too. One thing that I've always liked is the no auto-fail saves for stuff like mind over body - wreaks terrible havoc when combined with the positive energy plane.

[Hunter Noventa]

I also love the ToB. My personal favorite is the swordsage, both in style and versatility. Problem is half the people in my group who DM think the books is too powerful simply because I've been playing a very effective Swordsage, and now the book is banned.

Probably didn't help that we have an inept druid, a hexblade-then-duskblade-then-wizard (via rebuilding), and artificer and a not totall CoDzilla Cleric. SO i ended up standing out through thematic manuver choice and excellent execution.

[Assassinfox]

I also love the ToB. My personal favorite is the swordsage, both in style and versatility. Problem is half the people in my group who DM think the books is too powerful simply because I've been playing a very effective Swordsage, and now the book is banned.

Probably didn't help that we have an inept druid, a hexblade-then-duskblade-then-wizard (via rebuilding), and artificer and a not totall CoDzilla Cleric. SO i ended up standing out through thematic manuver choice and excellent execution.

Play a Batman Wizard and then go "Are you going to ban the Player's Handbook too?!"

[Annarrkkii]

I'll kill your DM for you, if you want. ToB needs to be allowed everywhere. There is no non-caster build on Shalm's green Earth that can't be enhanced by a touch of ToB.

Crusader flavor is easy enough to change. I don't like the idea of a God granting maneuvers, anyway, so I tend to just call them "available maneuvers" and say its situational or the like, based off how my opponent has exposed himself or something.

Many people say the number-crunching for ToB is irritating, since readied maneuvers change so frequently, and Crusaders have such random abilities, but I've downloaded, printed, and laminated the Maneuver Cards of WotC, and it's as easy as pie to keep track of them—form a "deck" of known maneuvers and flip one every turn for the Crusader, and keep a "library" of cards to choose from for my swordsage, with a "discard pile" of those I have used, and can recover with a full action. It's pretty easy to do, and leaves all my maneuver information as my fingertips.

And yes. Crusader more than makes up for its limited maneuver selection by being an absolutely brutal tank. Even at 1st level, they can outlast Barbarian's via Steely Resolve, dropping into Martial Spirit, and pounding away with Crusader Strike, Stone Bones, and Vanguard Strike—no matter what move you get granted, you'll be healing, gaining DR, or setting up your foes.

Incidentally, for a sword-and-boarder, there is no better class combo than a Knight/Crusader. The Shield Block maneuver, plus Shield Specialization and the class ability Shield Block +1 allows you to hand over +8 AC to an adjacent ally by 3rd level, and the Stone Dragon strikes you toss around let you make up for damage you would be dealing if you instead went THF.

[Bears With Lasers]

I also love the ToB. My personal favorite is the swordsage, both in style and versatility. Problem is half the people in my group who DM think the books is too powerful simply because I've been playing a very effective Swordsage, and now the book is banned.

Probably didn't help that we have an inept druid, a hexblade-then-duskblade-then-wizard (via rebuilding), and artificer and a not totall CoDzilla Cleric. SO i ended up standing out through thematic manuver choice and excellent execution.

Play a core-only cleric, druid, or wizard. Be more effective than your swordsage. Point this out.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind Warblades ar probably my favorite warriors to play. I'm still biased towards spontaneous arcane casters...but man...that warblade was awesome.

[Takamari]

I believe that if you put any of the martial adept classes against the fighter type core classes, and you've got dead fighter core classes. A ranged class has a bigger advantage, but not by much.

I always thought that the ToB was too powerful, and I admit, that I'm almost still of that mind. Why would I want to play a fighter when I could play a warblade, and qualify for all the fighter only feats? Now, I would play a fighter/barbarian/paladin for flavor, but not for optimization.

In any case, I agree with most everyone else that has said it. Play a cleric druid or wizard and then prove that even the ToB doesn't even that gap.

[Ramza00]

Tome of Battle
Tome of Battle: Tricks/Combos/Library - (by Tleilaxu_Ghola)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636
Tome of Battle: Build Compendium - (by Tleilaxu_Ghola)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636
The Art of Making a Multi-Class Martial Adept - (by Tleilaxu_Ghola) more discussions on Tome of Battle
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683268
Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775
Maneuver's Without Requisites
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=766821
ToB: Reports from the trenches - (by Tleilaxu_Ghola) a report on low-level usage of the Crusader
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789367


Crusader Recover Mechanic: Set Theory Analysis- (by Tleilaxu_Ghola)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=707947
(Note the sage is now going with the Non Customer Service answer for this one)

Reading all the Maneuvers as Maneuver cards is available free here (also helps with keeping track of which Crusader Maneuvers are granted)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Excerpts and stuff here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...dacc/953787200

[Ramza00]

Is that enough number crunching for you? :-P

[Takamari]

Um, lol, a lot more than I bargained for.

[Ramza00]

Pretty much ask us what type of character you want to build?

Crusader for tank
Warblade for TWF or a better Fighter
Swordsage for a little bit of everything/and or monk

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's hard to say which one's best, since all three are so fantastic. I guess you could super crunch to determine it, but it seems everyone has their own personal class of choice. I love the swordsage to absolute bits. I'm also a noted skill monkey fan, though, so it only makes sense.

[Bears With Lasers]

Pretty much ask us what type of character you want to build?

Crusader for tank
Warblade for TWF or a better Fighter
Swordsage for a little bit of everything/and or monk

Wouldn't a swordsage using feats (or a dip) on Stormguard Warrior be a better TWFer than the Warblade, what with Shadow Blade and DW extra damage boosts and all?

[Annarrkkii]

Swordsages are quite solidly superior TWFers. The Warblade is essentially just the Fighter Version Awesome.

[Takamari]

Thats what I thought about the warblades vs the swordsages, both are good. So, does the Crusader beat the Cleric in tanking? I find it hard to believe that it is possible, but I have been known to be wrong at times.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm not sure. A cleric has all those nasty buffs and heals, but so does the crusader. It would be a good fight, at least. Any good optimizers want to break that down?

[ImperiousLeader]

Wouldn't a swordsage using feats (or a dip) on Stormguard Warrior be a better TWFer than the Warblade, what with Shadow Blade and DW extra damage boosts and all?

It takes 4 feats for a Swordsage to get Stormguard without multiclassing. A Warblade can get Shadowblade in 2 feats without multiclassing and can get Weapon Finesse at first level. I tend to prefer TWFing Warblades for those reasons.

[Ramza00]

You can always do a Warblade/Swordsage Mutliclass.

Warblade X followed by 2 lvls of Swordsage followed by more warblade and ending with Master of Nine.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The best thing about that is that the Martial Adept core classes are so configurable. You can dip into all three and still have a highly effective character. Since your initiator level just keeps increasing, you'll still have access to all the biggest maneuvers and stances when you switch around.

I've been meaning to do this. C/S/W/MoN/EB will be the greatest swordsman that ever did live.

[Annarrkkii]

Hell, better than that, each one on its own is configurable. You don't HAVE to dip all over the place.

One straight swordsage loads up on Shadow Hand and Desert Flame, becoming a stealthy, high-damage combatant, cloaked in shadow and armed with flaming swords, fighting for a dark cult. One loads up on Diamond Mind and Setting Sun, takes Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed strike, and is a toga-clad martial artist from a mountain citadel. One grabs a fistful of Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw, and is a tattooed wildman from the deepest jungles, armed with a pair of kukris.

Warblade, and, yes, even Crusader are quite customizable on their own. Crusader does better with a dip, if you want him to have a more unique set of maneuvers, but few martial adepts are exactly the same.