There's evil, and then there's just plain sick.

[Gerrtt]

OK...here's the short version. I'm playing in an evil game at a local games shop once a week. It's been fun so far dispite the fact that we have only had 1 combat and we're on week 4. However, we just had a new character enter the game with a somewhat disturbing personality feature; pedophillia.


Now, evil is one thing but the way I see it pedophillia is a whole other ballgame. From what I've talked to with the other players, we're pretty sure that if that goes on and we find out about it he's going to meet a rather nasty end, but is this reaction warrented? Am I just overreacting? I mean, sure, I know it's not my cup of tea but is it wrong for me to not want to be involved in a game where that takes place?

Any thoughts out there on what we could do about this player? Talking to him is obvious, but it's not really fair for us to say he can't play what he wants...but dude...nobody wants to think about a gnome pedophilling the next human kid we come across.

[Tiberian]

I would just have the group talk to the player and tell them that their uncomfortable with the player's choice of character. Its kind of a bizarre case though, if the player is just experimenting with his roleplaying skill, he'll understand. If he's doing it as a kind of wish fulfillment, um..that's bad.

[Tyger]

Evil is pretty relative really. If you're character is Lawful or even Neutral Evil, its quite likely that a diseased mind (as pedophilia is) would be abhorent and suject to a swift stab in the throat... but that's just my interpretation.

There are some things that I don't think should be RPed... rape and pedophilia top those lists. But then I am a pretty puritan bloke. The way I see it is that no one should have fun (which is the whole point of RPing, isn't it?) doing things that are just universally accepted as morally repugnant on that level. Especially if his "fun" is going to negatively impact upon the fun of the others at the table.

I say, stab him in the back and take his stuff - you know, just to end his suffering.

[johhny-turbo]

Well, how serious is he? He could just be saying it for shock value and aside from the occasional creepy remark he might not really follow through with it.

[kamikasei]

Of course it's fair to say he can't play what he wants. If there's something that the whole rest of the table doesn't want in the game, it's entirely unfair for one player to insist on bringing it in.

This particular issue is something people are extremely sensitive about and you generally wouldn't need to justify the desire to keep it out of play. If part of the point of this game is to be creepy, messed-up dudes indulging in "forbidden" behaviors then, maybe, the player could handle it as being an aspect of his character that's there but is never seen in play. Maybe. In all likelihood, and especially if it's more of a let's-take-over-the-world-mwahaha style of Evil game, you shouldn't feel at all bad about asking the player to change the concept or stay out of the game.

edit: I agree with Tyger's first paragraph above, that it would be entirely within character for many Evil characters to abhor a pedophile and either refuse to associate with him or even (they're Evil after all) murder him (more for offending their taste than their morality... but even the latter, for a Lawful Evil character).

[Roethke]

I'd say you're totally within bounds asking him to change his character. It's simple courtesy-- if he's making the entire player group uncomfortable, then, regardless of some greater principle of 'you can play what you want', he should change.

Secondly, as regards ANY sexual content in games, most groups I've been in tacitly figure out G,PG,PG-13, etc, and violations in either direction usually end up with the character being called a prude, or groans of disgust, so it's pretty self regulating. If this guy is throwing things out of whack, then it's gotta be addressed so everyone can go back to having fun.

Finally, when you do talk to him, maybe ask why he made the character that way? I mean if it's just a lark, (okay a weird, weird lark), or maybe he read 'Pervy Hobbit Fancier' online and was inspired, or something, then changing to keep the group happy should be no big deal. Or maybe he comes up with a good explanation, and it's no longer as creepy. But if he's seriously, emotionally, committed to this character concept, then probably a good idea to ask if yourselves want to be hanging around with him.

.02
~R

[Lord Tataraus]

That is very disturbing. I would never allow something like that in my campaign, I would tell him that he changes now or he is gone. I would talk to him and if he doesn't change he needs help, but until then kick him out.

[Gerrtt]

Yeah, see, I'm not really sure how serious he is cause he joined the game and then wrote his character profile up afterwards. He did say that he was playing the character he was because someone thought it was funny, so I'm not sure how serious that means he is. Now, honestly, if it doesn't play out in game (at least, where we can see it, that is, as a private RP thing between him and the DM) then while still disturbing it's not as bad. But I'm pretty sure my character is going to think it warrents a Finger of Death if he does something to a little kid. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally crazy.

[johhny-turbo]

edit: I agree with Tyger's first paragraph above, that it would be entirely within character for many Evil characters to abhor a pedophile and either refuse to associate with him or even (they're Evil after all) murder him (more for offending their taste than their morality... but even the latter, for a Lawful Evil character).

It'd depend on the specific character of course, I don't know about you but I'd say Marquis de Sade (and the protagonist in his works) would be LE but certainly wouldn't be offended by a pedophile (look up the 120 Days of Sodom on wikipedia if you wanna see why sadism is named after him)

But a Torquemada LE character, I'd totaly see them slaughtering anything that offends him

[TSGames]

Any thoughts out there on what we could do about this player? Talking to him is obvious, but it's not really fair for us to say he can't play what he wants...but dude...nobody wants to think about a gnome pedophilling the next human kid we come across.

*Emphasis Added*
Ewww...a Gnome?! Kill it! Kill it at once!!!

Seriously though, if everyone at the table has agreed to kill him if he RP's his character then it's pretty clear he's overstepped some kind of boundary. I think that as soon as your characters discover this behavior they should kill him and take his stuff. It's not because it's an evil party; I would recommend it even for a good or neutral party. While I don't support metagaming, the fact is that a line was clearly crossed and the reprimand must be had. When your evil +1 daggers of backstabbing slash into him achieving retribution hopefully, just maybe, he will learn that he's gone too far and the line will not be violated again.

[Fat Daddy]

You're not crazy. Personally, as a DM I wouldn't allow this and as a player I wouldn't play in a game where this was allowed. As someone already said, something that is universally morally repugnant and makes everyone else uncomfortable is not good for the game.

Keep in mind that I do not like this type of game at all. It is why I don't play in any games/campaigns that use or allow the BoVD. Just no need for it. The game is (for me) a creative escape not a rehash of the sickness we all see on the news every day.

[Belteshazzar]

I could see Many evil characters being repulsed by this character as well as the good ones (assuming they weren't demonic.) I mean heck they may have kids too (take the mafia for example of lawful evil) 'If' you allow this character (and I am 'not' suggesting you you do) then be aware that anyone with mind reading would probably kill him on sight.

[Maxymiuk]

I've started an evil game 3 weeks ago, and I have the good fortune of running for players mature enough that they talked about stuff like that beforehand and decided where the limits are.

I'd say. sit down as a group and have a similar talk among yourselves. Let the guy know that not everyone is comfortable with the topic.

[the_tick_rules]

what about michael jackson, is he evil hehe.

[MusScribe]

I'm going to agree with most people here.

Having a talk, maybe building the character concepts as you talk, would probably be best. Most of the problem is that there's a limit for personal preference.

For example, as a number of people here have said, they wouldn't allow the character. Or, wouldn't play with the character. Personally, it would depend. I mean, if it was one that forced himself on kids, that would probably be a bit much for me.

On the other hand, it could be a gnome who finds himself attracted to those of his size. Of course, in human lands, the only ones who meet these criteria are children. Now, he doesn't do anything, and is attempting to keep himself under control. That I'd probably be fine with, as long as the character was well thought out. It allows for a number of roleplaying possibilities, interesting situations, and if it gets to be a problem, could have the personality trait (or, if needed, the character) out.


But again, it comes down to personal comfort, as it is a game, to be played for fun. So if you (and, moreso, your whole group) are uncomfortable with the character - definitely say something. There are boundries people are comfortable with, and there are two ways to discover them. Talk them over or overstep them in game. I don't suggest the latter.

[Diggorian]

You're not overreacting at all. Not only is it evil beyond evil, but you're gaming this campaign in public. Unless it's in an area away from the other game shop customers, could get your group kicked out. D&D doesnt need anymore ill-fame. Bring it up with him before your next session.

If this ... vice plays out off camera only with note passing, I'd say let him. This shouldn't be narrated ever. It's the blackest of a deep dark secret, could almost be a Flaw. Were it me I'd only tell the DM and revel in the secret.

Gnome with a human kid ... it's extra sick cause in a way it makes sense with ... size. *fails Will save, faints*

[MusScribe]

I did miss the fact it was in a game shop...

In that case, I'll agree with Diggorian, in that if it's in front of other game shop customers (or could be in front of), then you should definitely suggest he leave that part out.


I mean, it's one thing when its with your own group that are comfortable with it, but for random people - possibly with their own kids there, it is definitely too far.

[Cocktail Umbrellas]

I think it's certainly a matter that needs to be talked about.
Pedophilia really isn't funny. At all ^^;;....

Unless the pedophilia joke has to do with something silly like an elf and a human ("90 year old dating a 25 year old- oh how awkward tee hee hee") it's probably best to have at least that aspect of the character be eliminated. I think that when it comes to D&D non-consentual stuff should be kept away, just too sensitive a topic.

I find it funny that I'm saying this considering that there is often death, murder and other rather serious topics involved in the game, but I suppose pedophilia is just something that is so out of context in regards to the typical 'adventuring' invovled in gaming that I don't think it appropriate.

[Meat Shield]

I would definitely throw up a red flag on this one. Here in Nashville, the only real FLGS in town was thrown on the front pages because one of the employees was arrested for even counts of child rape, four counts of aggravated sexual battery involving a child and two counts of sexual exploitation of a minor. Needless to say, this was unneeded publicity. (The FLGS is the Game Keep, the employee in question was Jeremy Duffer. Link)

To make things worse, he escaped custody and was not found for months until he was arrested while working at a travelling carnival.

This sort of thing that your friend is doing will only feed into the paranoia some people have about D&D. They have not gotten over the stuff from the 80s when it was all about Satan and your kids will be turned into witches blah blah blah. Stuff like this is not just uncool, it is actually hurtful to the game. Please make him stop.

[MusScribe]

Very true Cocktail Umbrellas...

I mean, if you consider the starting ages - a Gnome is at least 44, while a Human is at least 16 (at most 27). And an Elf...

And, it is interesting the amount of serious topics that get joked about (death/murder/assassination, arsony over a whole town, mass destruction of worlds/planes, serial killing*, etc) - but things like this are so unusual that they aren't appropriate (as opposed to the other stuff)

*What would you call the systematic slaughter of anything that happens to be living in a specific area not of a specific (or group of specific) type?

[Lolth]

Well, I hear that murderers in prison hold a special contempt for that sort of thing, so evil putting up with it is certainly not a given.

[henebry]

Have any of you seen the classic Weimar Germany film "M", starring Peter Lorre? I ask because the situation described by the OP (a bunch of evil characters dumbfounded by the greater evil of pedophilia) is pretty much the plot of that movie. Lorre stars as a pedophile (& serial killer? not sure after all these years) who is hunted not just by the decent folk of his town but ultimately by the mafia and underworld.

[Matthew]

Very weird. I don't know why anybody would want to bring that concept to the table, but then, I have heard many stories of so called 'evil' parties, that appear to have been nothing more than vicarious murder/rape fantasies being played out collectively. No way I would allow this to fly, except perhaps under the most exceptional of circumstances (Never say never, so I am told).

[EvilElitest]

Dude, their is a reason why it is one of the most serous crimes in the US.
Really, that is more than sick, that is depraved.
Child mosletation is not funny, as a 15 year old i have heard a lot about it and it is not funny in the least.
If one of my players even suggested doing that, i'd kick them out
If another player wanted to play this, here is what i and you should do

Talk to the DM and him in front of the other players, say how you are really uncomfortable with the idea, really uncomfortable and it is borderline offensive. It is not enjoyable and it ruins the game
Now the player in question should catch on and will
1. quit it
2. Stay dedicated to it and keep at it dispite your complaints, then we have a nasty problem
Ehter demand that hte DM stop him / kick him out, or leave.

It is sick, gross, depraved, fundamentally wrong, awful, inmoral, cruel, tramatising, offensive, brutal, awful, and simple inhumain. Joking about this things is even worst than joking about things like rape or the Holocust.
Just no, no no no
from,
EE

[lsfreak]

Really depends on the maturity and evil-ness of your game, which pretty much needs to be laid out ahead of time. This is obviously far above what your group is willing to deal with, and this should be pointed out and dealt with. Personally, that's about the only level of "evil" that still gets me and I refuse go in-depth whatsoever about.

EE, what about the torture or at the very least genocide present in most D&D games? >.> Is that not also sick, gross, depraved, fundamentally wrong, awful, immoral, cruel, traumatizing, offensive, brutal, awful, and simply inhumane? (Sorry, love to bring up ethics/morality in such situations).
Probably shouldn't answer that, as it's a thread hijack, but just something to think about :P

[I_Got_This_Name]

*What would you call the systematic slaughter of anything that happens to be living in a specific area not of a specific (or group of specific) type?

Ethnic Cleansing? Genocide?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Totally awesome? A very good night?

[kpenguin]

My two cents:

As long as the player doesn't RP it and keeps in the background, I don't see why not. Pedophilia is not necessarily considered universally abhorent and in real life I would put it below the kind of wanton destruction and torture common in D&D on the list of great evils, although certainly a bit more disturbing. There are many historical pedophiles that are not considered as absolutely evil as many other historical figures who have commited crimes that are commonly incoperated in D&D. Was Socrates more of an abomination than Hitler? To modern players, pedophila is disturbing, but to say that a bunch of evil characters who are prone to torture and violence and so forth would hunt down and destroy a pedophile simply because of he/she is a pedophile is absurd.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

DID I JUST SEE GODWIN'S LAW?!



You brought this upon yourself.

[kpenguin]

Fine, replace "Hitler" with Stalin or Saddam or Nero or whoever you want, my point is still the same.