Best Way to Spruce up a Monk: Fist of Zuoken, Sacred Fist or Swordsage Multi-Class

[Pax_Chi]

Hey folks, been a while.

One look at my avatar will tell you I'm a fan or martial arts, and I'm a fan of the concept behind the Monk class, even if I think the execution could use some work. So with that in mind, I'm curious of these two official Prestige Classes and Book of Nine Swords Core Class, what's the best way to take the standard Monk class and make him a bit more of an effective adventurer?

The Sacred Fist gives him access to divine Magic, making him a good back up healer with a lot of dangerous abilities given how many Divine Spells are Touch based. He also gets a full BAB score which helps make him a better front line fighter while preventing him from outshining the Fighters, Paladins, Rangers or Barbarians in BAB rank. Plus, it encourages players to get a high Wisdom to enhance both the Monks abilities and the Cleric's spells.

The Fist of Zuoken lacks the BAB of the Sacred Fist, but the Monk's focus on meditation and inner searching makes Psionics a good source of power for them, fitting the concept as well as the execution.

The Swordsage makes for an excellent alternative to the Monk class altogether, though combined with the monks abilities they make for a formidable pair. They too are stuck with a medium BAB, but the martial arts techniques fits the Shao-Lin esque martial artist Monks are based on. Someone really needs to make a Book of Nine Swords Prestige Class with Monks in mind.

Frankly, given how many levels of Monk and other classes the character would have to take to have access to the Prestige classes, most of them should have a full BAB to balance out the Monk's innate lack of one compared to the other fighters, but that's an old gripe I've had for a while, so don't mind me.

So with that having been thrown out, which of these three, in your mind, is the best upgrade a Monk can recieve? And are there other, official Prestige classes out there that might better improve a Monk than these?

[Bears With Lasers]

Basically, take Swordsage. Forget "multi-classing", just take Swordsage; use the Unarmed Strike adaptation, and you'll be like a monk but better in every way.

[1337_master]

Don't water down your Monk...ish blood with that "Prestige class" Filth. Monks are great, and you can't change that.

[Bears With Lasers]

Great... at what, exactly?

[Macrovore]

hitting stuff while naked and in an antimagic field.

[JoeFredBob]

Please don't start that bears. It's been hashed into the ground plenty.

Anyway, I personally think the fist of zuoken looks fun. I haven't personally played using psionics (yet), but it seems to have a lot of good buff-type powers, which is the sort of stuff you want to use when you're a partial caster. It also doesn't require multi-classing to enter, so you don't lose progression on unarmed strike damage etc.

[The_Snark]

Sacred Fist and Fist of Zuoken are both workable classes, giving some nice buffing abilities to the monk; the Sacred Fist requires a bit of multiclassing first, though.

Multiclassing with swordsage doesn't sound like a great idea, because you can't use strikes while using flurry of blows. If you're going to use the swordsage, make it a plain, non-multiclassed swordsage and select maneuvers as is thematically appropriate (probably Setting Sun and whatever others you feel like).

[Pax_Chi]

Please don't start that bears. It's been hashed into the ground plenty.

Anyway, I personally think the fist of zuoken looks fun. I haven't personally played using psionics (yet), but it seems to have a lot of good buff-type powers, which is the sort of stuff you want to use when you're a partial caster. It also doesn't require multi-classing to enter, so you don't lose progression on unarmed strike damage etc.

Some good points here. All you need is the Wild Talent Psionic Feat and a 6th level Monk can jump right in to the Class. Inertial Armor, Inertial Barrier and Force Screen all are good defense buffs, while things like Weapon of Energy make for great unarmed strike buffs. Not to mention you can use feats to get things like Touch Sight and other powers that are very Monk-ish.

I think it should be house ruled that if you took levels in Psi-Warrior, your levels of that stack with the Fist of Zuoken levels.

[Pax_Chi]

Sacred Fist and Fist of Zuoken are both workable classes, giving some nice buffing abilities to the monk; the Sacred Fist requires a bit of multiclassing first, though.

True, but you really only need to take one level in Cleric to get access to it, which isn't such a bad sacrifice all things being equal, save for having to spend 2 levels with a +0 BAB.

Multiclassing with swordsage doesn't sound like a great idea, because you can't use strikes while using flurry of blows. If you're going to use the swordsage, make it a plain, non-multiclassed swordsage and select maneuvers as is thematically appropriate (probably Setting Sun and whatever others you feel like).

True, they offer some ways to make the Swordsage more Monkly in the book, which basically amounts to giving them the Monk's Unarmed damage progression at the cost of the weapon proficiencies.

I really wish they'd come out with a Book of Nine Swords sourcebook, maybe expand on the technique lists, add new styles and bring in some more Prestige classes, especially one designed with the Monk in mind.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

FoZ is a good PrC, although I highly suggest to the Monk that he not go into it until level 11. Why? Simple... he wants his perfect flurry.

Force Screen and Inertial Armor are both very good defensive buffs, but a friendly caster with Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor can replace Inertial Armor. Force Screen is good, but Biofeedback is the true gem at 1st level for defensive buffs. Monk only has a D8 HD, which is bad for a melee class. DR 2/- can help invaluabally against hordes of mooks, shrugging off lesser blows. Augmenting manifestation to get more DR is good as well.

For offensive, grab Expansion. Large and eventually Huge sized fists. Combine this with Improved Natural Attack or Superior Unarmed Strike (from ToB) for truely sick damage output.

For level 2: Psionic Lion's Charge lets him do a full flurry on a charge, which allows him to take maximum advantage of his greater number of attacks and his mobility.

While we're at it, Strength of My Enemy is handy for the sheer number of attacks he will be making

Hustle is good to get a move action after a full attack on a charge to get the flock out of there so you're not in melee range.

For level 3: Empathic Transfer, Hostile. Heal yourself and hurt him... all in one move.

However...

Swordsage pwns Monk. There is absolutely *NO* reason why you should multiclass Monk/Swordsage if you can just go straight Swordsage. Go unarmed variant, which sacrifices light armor for full monk unarmed attack progression.

And there is a monk/swordsage PrC... it's called the Shadow Sun Ninja. Probably one of the worst PrC's in the book.

[Pax_Chi]

And there is a monk/swordsage PrC... it's called the Shadow Sun Ninja. Probably one of the worst PrC's in the book.

Okay, then let me re-phrase that: A ToB PrC that DOESN'T suck and is geared towards making a martial arts Monk rather than a ninja.

[Annarrkkii]

Swordsage. Hands down. Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick substitute for monk just fine, but if you already have a monk, then definitely swordsage multiclass.

Grab Setting Sun maneuvers to help you press the attack. A few Stone Dragon maneuvers have excellent monk flavor, and when combined with Stunning Fist or the Decisive Strike variant, they can make for some serious bruisage.

EDIT: In response to you simupost, no. ToB is still in its infancy. It's kind of like Jesus. It's just a baby, but we know it's going to save the world any time now. As such, we are waiting with baited breath for its batism expansion, and we fully expect supplements to come eventually. There are only a few, very specific PrCs in the Core rulebook—which is totally okay—and are meant to give the homebrewy an idea of what to work with. Not perfect, but a good beginning.

[The_Snark]

Eh, the Shadow Sun Ninja isn't bad, though it probably isn't quite up to Tome of Battle's other classes. It is heavily ninja-oriented, though, and had a light-and-darkness flavor that isn't possible to shake. It's a narrow concept. Cool, though. (Do you know how hard it is to get a total darkness effect normally?)

I'd make the choice based on how you see the character: if he's a religious ascetic, Sacred Fist is a good choice. If he's more of a martial artist who achieves nearly or overtly superhuman feats, Fist of Zuoken or Swordsage is probably the way to go.

Fist of Zuoken has trouble augmenting powers, though, with so few PP, until the class's highest levels. Of the two, I'd prefer a straight Swordsage.

[knightsaline]

What about Kensai? you get some nifty abilities including ENCHANTING YOUR FISTS! make them throwing and flaming (you can make your fists throwing! its in RAW) Kensai is in Cwar

[Pax_Chi]

What about Kensai? you get some nifty abilities including ENCHANTING YOUR FISTS! make them throwing and flaming (you can make your fists throwing! its in RAW) Kensai is in Cwar

I remember reading up on the Kensai a while back, and while I don't remember the specifics, I do remember being underwhelemed at what it offered, especially compared to the above options.

[RMS Oceanic]

I like the Kensai options. For starters, your fists can be +5 weapons. I'd also consider enchanting them with Collision, a +2 modifier that pretty much adds 5 damage to every hit with the enchanted weapon. No dice roll, no elements to worry about, and it gets multiplied on a critical. Impact is a good +1 ability, as it is the bludgoning equivalent of keen. My personal preference for a level ten Monk/Kensai would be +4 impact collision speed fists. I think that's disturbing enough.

[JaronK]

I'll throw in with another vote for pure Swordsage. With the unarmed varient, it's just a monk only better, with actual martial arts techniques to make things interesting.

JaronK

[Closet_Skeleton]

Kensei is a very sucky class. Average base attack and no real class features, its a poor prestige version of OA's Samurai meant to replace OA's completely differant but overpowering Kensei. Get a friendly druid to cast greater magic fang on you. You don't need impact since you can get improved critical anyway and haste is such an easy option for a wizard to buff you with that speed is a waste.

Fist of Zuoken is awesome and Sacred Fist appears overpowered.

[Flawless]

Kensei is a very sucky class. Average base attack and no real class features, its a poor prestige version of OA's Samurai meant to replace OA's completely differant but overpowering Kensei. Get a friendly druid to cast greater magic fang on you. You don't need impact since you can get improved critical anyway and haste is such an easy option for a wizard to buff you with that speed is a waste.

Fist of Zuoken is awesome and Sacred Fist appears overpowered.

Why? SaF is weaker than straight cleric and better than straight monk (which any class ought to be). So I don't see a problem with it.

[Zincorium]

Kensei is a very sucky class. Average base attack and no real class features, its a poor prestige version of OA's Samurai meant to replace OA's completely differant but overpowering Kensei. Get a friendly druid to cast greater magic fang on you. You don't need impact since you can get improved critical anyway and haste is such an easy option for a wizard to buff you with that speed is a waste.

Fist of Zuoken is awesome and Sacred Fist appears overpowered.

So...Being dependent on others and blowing a feat to do what you could do yourself is a good thing? Man.

Seriously, a +8 unnamed bonus to strength, as a move action? +2 to all of your allies checks? The BAB is the same as the monk's, so why bash it, and you go up a die size for hit points.

Also, there is nothing stopping you from taking +9 worth of enhancements that can't be replicated with spells and having the same greater magic fang cast.

[TRM]

Personally I'm not to fond of the Sacred Fist, mainly the class abilities. However full BaB is pretty sweet.
I really enjoyed playing a fist of Zuoken a couple months back, the psionic powers go along well with my idea of a monk.

Of course that had absolutely nothing to do with the game statistics, but I look at flavor more than abilities.

--Me

[Talya]

Great... at what, exactly?

Surviving. Even though the monk's signature abilities (speed and flurry) are mutually exclusive, they are quite survivable, with medium hit points, decent to-great armor class, extremely good saves, unparallelled speed and mobility.

My main issue with the monk class is their inability to utilize their flurry of blows while moving, and a monk should never stop moving. Second issue is that whole MAD thing.

In a mid-level campaign, our little halfling monk who was trip/grapple specialized (go figure) was actually ridiculously effective, especially considering his size penalities.

[Annarrkkii]

Kensai is not a sucky class—especially for ToB characters, who generally have the Concentration skill anyway. With 10 ranks and mediocre Constitution, you get a 2/day use of +8 to strength. That's +4 to hit, and +4 to damage. NOT BAD. In addition, you can burn relatively inexpensive quantities of XP to make your fists—your undisarmable, unsunderable, unloseable fists—über magical weapons. ÜBER! The one thing that bites about the class is having to take Weapon Focus to get in, but that's overlookable—to a degree.

Sacred Fist is pretty solid, but the "delivering touch attack through unarmed strike" combo is somewhat overrated. It's NICE, yes. Quite nice, in fact, but it isn't really what you're after. Full BAB is a good thing, but Kensai offers that, as well. The smattering of divinity you can pick up through Sacred Fist pales in comparison to the power of a Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist with the Ascetic Mage feat. Lay on Hands is meh, as it always is, and, without armor and a lot of the more vital Clerical buffs, you can't stand on the front line and heal/buff/slug away like a real cleric can.

Swordsage is by far the best option available to you, just like Warblade is better than Fighter or Barbarian, and Crusader is better than Paladin and occasionally a bard, Swordsage is better than Ranger or Monk. Monks will Stone Dragon maneuvers are a terrifying sight to behold, especially when they are Shadow Jaunting about the battlefield and flinging enemy formations into dissarray with their various Setting Sun throws. The small-sized monk, once a laughable idea, with its reduced damage and speed, is now a terrifying sight to behold, as it adopts Giant-killing Stance against Medium creatures and uses grotesque quantities of leverage for brutal Setting Sun tosses, throws, and trips.

Any time is a good time to dip into Swordsage. I personally recommend going 4 levels of monk (if human or half-elf, mind you, or a monk-favoring race), then multiclassing to Swordsage so you fist 6 maneuvers can be both 1st- and 2nd-level. Believe it or not, these 6 maneuvers and one stance could probably tide you over until 8th level, at which time you could take a 2nd level of Swordsage for a 3rd-level manuever and stance, and then just PUMP swordsage all the way through, taking overpowered maneuvers as you go until, by Monk 11/Swordsage 9, you should have no 1st-level maneuvers, few 2nd-level, and a good few 3rd-level. Alternatively, you can just meander your way up both sides of the class at the same time, bumping Swordsage to 4, then Monk to 5, then Swordsage to 5, then Monk to 6... and so on, or similarly on, until you get to Monk 11/Swordsage 9. Make sure to take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick along the way, as they beautify your class, and Shadow Hand Style helps alleviate some of the infamous Monk MAD with Dex to damage. Your maneuvers won't be quite as maxed out by this method, but you will have more of them, sooner, meaning that you Monk gets "spiced up" more thoroughly at early levels.

Now, if you're a small monk (don't laugh, they work now!), you have to go slightly differently, because no small races can get away with leaving a level gap between Monk and Swordsage. I advise going 2 Monk, then 3 Swordsage, and onward and upward to around Monk 7/Swordsage 8. From there, a level of Shadowdancer is often a good choice, for Hide in Plain Sight to gain your flatfooted Shadow Hand maneuvers more often, and then either take 4 Kensei levels, or 4 Shadow Sun Ninja levels, or just keep advancing your Monk/Swordsage to 9/10. Make sure to load up on Setting Sun maneuvers to compensate for reduced damage.

[PinkysBrain]

The divine spell list has some pretty good buffs but without cheese they all take standard actions to cast till you are very high level. Psionics are much better for a gish who wants to be ready to fight ASAP. So Fist of Zuoken > sacred fist IMO.

Pure swordsage is good too but as was said just don't bother with monk levels at all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In any party who has someone able to buff people with Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang, being able to blow xp to enchant your fists is pointless.

[Annarrkkii]

NO! No it isn't. Not if you use those XP points to enchant your fists with abilities other than, say enhancement bonuses. Then you can Greater Natural Fang your fists for a +5 bonus as well as having them be impact, speed, thundering, flaming, and sundering. Or whatever.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

NO! No it isn't. Not if you use those XP points to enchant your fists with abilities other than, say enhancement bonuses. Then you can Greater Natural Fang your fists for a +5 bonus as well as having them be impact, speed, thundering, flaming, and sundering. Or whatever.

Or I can go straight Swordsage, with Stone Dragon, and do a flat +100 damage to a strike with a maneuver. Or I could go significantly into Tiger Fang, make a Jump check, DC opponent's AC, and make a full attack on a leaping charge. Either of which will give me far more damage output than the build you described, doesn't require Multiclassing, and doesn't require me blowing XP.

[Annarrkkii]

Ahk. Sorry. Look: I KNOW Tome of Battle is better than anything else. It's the best option in all of D+D for nonspellcasters right now. Period. I love Tome of Battle to death. It renders just about everything short of a Shock Trooping fighter obsolete.

However, I was merely defending that Kensai is not useless. Nothing pre-ToB stands up to ToB material, other than the Shock Trooping tree and maybe a well built archer or reacher. This thread is about "sprucing up a monk" not "ownage with Tome of Battle." Yes. It is a fact that the best Monk build would be a Swordsage 20, or, if you have to use Monk, a Monk 2/Swordsage 18. Or something in that vicinity. I was merely defending Kensai as a Prestige class. I know ToB is good. I'm reasonably sure everyone here has already accepted the fact that the best option is ToB. I'm just trying to be circumspect about it.

Also, bear in mind that there is no reason you can't go Swordsage 14/Kensai 6 to get +6 of enchantments and still have access to 9th-level maneuvers. But you are correct. ToB=win.

[Pauwel]

Besides, the spending of XP will actually end up giving you a higher XP total than your party mates (it has been proven mathematically, though I can't remember how).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Full BAB is a good thing, but Kensai offers that, as well.

No it doesn't as has already been stated in this very thread. There are also spells that can give decent properties to your fists. Prevenom is a particularly nasty power you can use as well.

Monks can also buy magic gauntlets or even god-forbid use enchanted Kama or Nunchaku.