level 20 Dervish recipe (Munchkin!)

[Talya]

Let me preface this by saying, if I were DMing a game and some player tried to build this, I'd feed him to the tarrasque. It's pure munchkin design, with no thought to cohesive feats that actually make sense from a character storyline standpoint, instead entirely built around qualifying for a pair PRCs that stack too nicely. Two of the feats they'll never even use...except as a qualification for a PrC.

Now, with that out of the way, here is a recipe for Dervish Munchkin Delight.

Start with a base of Grey Elf. The +2 dex and int are the exact flavor we're looking for here. Add in 2 levels of Swashbuckler, for taste. (And weapon finesse as a class ability and weapon focus: Longsword as your level 1 feat. While Longsword seems like the flavor will be out of place in this dish, it adds some nice flavor while baking.) Then take two levels of fighter right now, and sprinkle with combat expertise, dodge, and mobility. Take one more level of Swashbuckler for insightful strike.

Now open your jar of dervish and drop one level of dervish into the dish. Take two weapon fighting. Stir. Use Scimitars from now on.

Slowly mix in two more levels of fighter and add a pinch of rarely used Mounted Combat.

It's at this point where weapon focus: longsword shows its flavor. Carefully blacken two spears of Champion of Corellon Larethian for "Elegance." (Elegant strike, that is.) Dust it with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, before adding to the mix.

Place in the oven and bake for 9 levels of Dervish. Periodically open it up to add Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Scimitar, and Weapon Specialization: Scimitar.

Take it out and let cool. If you prefer, garnish with a slice of Ranger for Tracking.

[Arbitrarity]

That's not really... cheese.

I mean, OK, you add dex, int and str to damage, and get dervish 10 abilities. But, at best, you get something like +31 from stats, but that needs two +4 tomes, one +5 tome, and 3 18's. While very shiny, it doesn't stand up to something cheesy like a Thri-Kreen Fighter/psywar or somesuch :P.

Wait... 7 hits of 1d6+32? Ouch.

Nah. Think 14 hits of 1d6+39 or so. (This is the result of a MWF thri kreen with scimitars and leap attack, shock trooper, 6 levels of fighter, 11 of psywar, psionic lion's charge full-attacking.)

Marty, this thing still does overall 7d6+7xInt+7xDex+4xStr

Speed weapon!

[martyboy74]

This really isn't that good. A thri-kreen straight fighter with GMWF gets 13 attacks, and using said scimitars, deals 13d6+8.5*(STR modifier).

[Talya]

I've never seen a Thri-kreen, nor do i suspect it is playable in any campaign i've played in. :( Nor can I quite get the damage bonuses out of my build that you're suggesting...odd...

[martyboy74]

I've never seen a Thri-kreen, nor do i suspect it is playable in any campaign i've played in. :(

...it's in the MMII. And the XPH. You could also see if your DM would let you get a permanent item of Girallon's Blessing. Really, anyway to get an extra pair of arms works.

[Talya]

Ah, Thri-keen is in a psionics handbook. Every DM i've ever known has outlawed d20 psionics, and the psionics system described in SRD makes no sense to me at all.

[ZeroNumerous]

You gain X power points based on your class daily. You gain Y extra power points based on Z stat x level.

From there, it's like playing a sorceror.

Pick your powers, then use your power points to 'cast' said powers. You can only use as up to your level in power points in a single round though. Simple.

[martyboy74]

Ah, Thri-keen is in a psionics handbook. Every DM i've ever known has outlawed d20 psionics, and the psionics system described in SRD makes no sense to me at all.

...psionics makes more sense than vancian magic. And a DM who outlaws psionics in all campaigns probably thinks it's broken, which it's not.

[Talya]

...psionics makes more sense than vancian magic. And a DM who outlaws psionics in all campaigns probably thinks it's broken, which it's not.

I think most feel it's redundant, and there's no reason to have a second magic system in the game. It rarely fits well into the more common game worlds. (Even Forgotten Realms, which has a precedent for psionics, has them as extremely rare except in specific races, such as ilithids.)

[kamikasei]

I admit that "psionics rules make no sense to me" is an objection I've never heard before, and I agree with the others about it, but has it anything much to do with the discussion?

Talya, a 3.5 Thri-Kreen outside of the XPH may be found in Shining South, a Forgotten Realms book. Alternatively it's in the MM2. It's a bug-creature with extra arms.

[Talya]

Speaking of extra arms, has anyone ever seen any offical creatures/races that look like the Hindu Goddess Kali or any other four-armed human?

[Bears With Lasers]

Why would you feed someone with that build to the Tarrasque? It's solid, but not overpowering or game-breaking in any way. If PrCs have stupid feats for qualification, that's the PrCs' fault, not the player's.

[Ramza00]

Thri Keen

[Talya]

Ugly things. Not exactly condusive to tavern roleplaying, I'd bet.

[kamikasei]

Ugly things. Not exactly condusive to tavern roleplaying, I'd bet.

Fleshy bigot! And it depends on the tavern, really. Are they much worse than, say, a half-dragon or tiefling?

Point is, they're a not-particularly-splatbookish race on which a variety of absurd DPR builds can be based.

[Ramza00]

Ugly things. Not exactly condusive to tavern roleplaying, I'd bet.

And why wouldn't you expect a Thri-Keen to be allowed into a tavern? The major settings (Greyhawk, Eberron, FR) have a huge amount of variety of people and races. Why wouldn't an praying mantis with 4 arms be allowed into a tavern, especially when he has alot of gold on hand since he is an adventurer, and if you piss him off he will have multiple weapons where he can slice and dice you?

Furthemore there is always the Big Giant Cloak, Hat of Disquse, Custom Item of Alter Self, Skin of Proteus if the Thri Keen wants to be inconspicuous inside tavern environments.

Wonders how you would feel if you played a planescape tournament and you decided to sit down at a tavern

[Talya]

Why would you feed someone with that build to the Tarrasque? It's solid, but not overpowering or game-breaking in any way. If PrCs have stupid feats for qualification, that's the PrCs' fault, not the player's.

Because PrCs are not designed to make you more powerful than you would be single-classed. They're designed to add flavor, they're designed to make concepts playable that would otherwise be unworkable. They're not designed to "dip in" and pick and choose particular features to maximize your own potential. Ideally, you never even select a PrC...a DM offers it to you when he sees you going along a direction where it might appeal to you. As the DMG2 puts it when talking about building a custom PrC...they should be designed so that it's always difficult to decide if you want the next level of that PrC, or the base class you had started on. Unfortunately, the way the game is designed, that's not possible, there's no real "balance," and its too easy to mix and match class features to become far better than you would otherwise be. But the spirit of it is the same...

[Talya]

And why wouldn't you expect a Thri-Keen to be allowed into a tavern? The major settings (Greyhawk, Eberron, FR) have a huge amount of variety of people and races.

And in most of them, any "monstrous humanoid" style of race is gonna get killed on sight by city guards unless the people in the area know them well. Aside from that, if you read the fluff on Thri-kreen in Shining South (which I just did), they don't sound like they'd have much fun in a tavern. They have no real personalities to speak of, as is clearly spelled out in their racial descriptions.

[Lemur]

You say that like taking those two levels of Champion of Correllon makes you obviously more powerful than taking two levels of say, fighter. Dex to damage is certainly better than a bonus feat, but is it better than 3 bonus feats? If you don't take the PrC, you don't need Mounted Combat or Weapon Focus, meaning you have at least two free feats to play with, and feats don't come easily.

[martyboy74]

Because PrCs are not designed to make you more powerful than you would be single-classed. They're designed to add flavor, they're designed to make concepts playable that would otherwise be unworkable. They're not designed to "dip in" and pick and choose particular features to maximize your own potential. Ideally, you never even select a PrC...a DM offers it to you when he sees you going along a direction where it might appeal to you. As the DMG2 puts it when talking about building a custom PrC...they should be designed so that it's always difficult to decide if you want the next level of that PrC, or the base class you had started on. Unfortunately, the way the game is designed, that's not possible, there's no real "balance," and its too easy to mix and match class features to become far better than you would otherwise be. But the spirit of it is the same...

What? No. PrCs are supposed to be better than base classes. Why else would they have the level requirements?

[Bears With Lasers]

Sorry, but the proliferance of PrCs in WotC products says that, nope, that's not how it works.

Multiclassing PrCs is like regular multiclassing. "Ideally, you never select a PrC"? Then why do many have requirements few if any people would take otherwise, requirements that mean you have to start on it way in advance?
And why would you want to take those choices outof the hands of the players?

Besides, a character with those PrCs is still less powerful than a single-classed druid.

That build is not some sort of horrible munchkin build. It's pretty good, but it's not amazing. CoCL+Swashbuckler don't even add more damage than being really strong would, and fail against crit-immune creatures.

[Annarrkkii]

Solid. The Lion's Charge spell from the Spell Compendium, is a ranger spell and works just as well as Psionic Lion's Charge, so you don't need to use the psionics handbook.

But hell, a Raptoran Fighter/Ranger/Stormtalon is more effective, damage-wise. Leap Attack, Power Attack, Lion's Charge spell, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, Diving Charge, and then open a fight with the Twisted Charge skill trick on a dive attack, and your damage output is way higher.

Your example is far from gamebreaking or munchkinery. In fact, it's more of a reasonably realistic use of classes to create a solid character. You haven't really exploited any loopholes or anything.

Nice build, though, and I'm glad to see you took my suggestion to heart with the 3rd level of Swashbuckler. ;)

[Talya]

I forgot the champion bonus feat. I'm thinking elusive target or karmic strike...needs to be a fighter feat with either dodge, expertise, or mounted combat as a prerequisite. Suggestions?

Karmic Strike especially, while dervish dancing...move away from a target (don't tumble) you just hit while dancing...if he hits you you hit right back and keep dancing.

[Talya]

Sorry, but the proliferance of PrCs in WotC products says that, nope, that's not how it works.

Multiclassing PrCs is like regular multiclassing. "Ideally, you never select a PrC"? Then why do many have requirements few if any people would take otherwise, requirements that mean you have to start on it way in advance?
And why would you want to take those choices outof the hands of the players?

Besides, a character with those PrCs is still less powerful than a single-classed druid.

That build is not some sort of horrible munchkin build. It's pretty good, but it's not amazing. CoCL+Swashbuckler don't even add more damage than being really strong would, and fail against crit-immune creatures.

You and I have very different ideas of what's acceptable in our campaigns, I think. I wouldn't enjoy playing in one of yours...while mechanics like this make up a fun diversion once in a while, I don't care for this type of thing in actual gameplay.

[Bears With Lasers]

But... surely people play clerics or druids or wizards or sorcerers in your games, right? Why are they fine when the CoCL/dervish isn't?

[kamikasei]

Honestly, a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Champion/Dervish sounds like quite a fluffily solid character to me. An elf! A smart, agile, but not terribly strong elf! Who learns to turn his agility and cunning into a powerful fighting style, becoming a terrifyingly effective wielder of elegant elven weapons! (This is fluff, now, independent of how terrifying or effective the character actually is.)

What about that build do you object to, Talya?

[Ramza00]

Honestly, a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Champion/Dervish sounds like quite a fluffily solid character to me. An elf! A smart, agile, but not terribly strong elf! Who learns to turn his agility and cunning into a powerful fighting style, becoming a terrifyingly effective wielder of elegant elven weapons! (This is fluff, now, independent of how terrifying or effective the character actually is.)

What about that build do you object to, Talya?

She objects to the fact that in theory (in her mind and I agree with her) PRCs shouldn't advance the power when compared to base classes. In reality though WOTC has made it a fact that PRCs do advance the power of a character when compared to a pure base class character. Sure maybe 70-90% of prcs don't create power creep or very little power creep. Regardless most people don't take those 70-90% of prcs instead they take the 10-30% of prcs that help their character

She doesn't like the fact PRCs often give power boosts to a character. Me I don't mind this for melee/skill classes, for lets be honest melee isn't that good when you start getting to the levels when you can prestige out. This is due to the inital balance of melee vs magic. I do have a serious problem with full caster prcs especially ones such as IotSV, Incantatrix, and RSoP.

Her complaining about Champion of CL and Dervish seems peculiar to me, in reality it is those other 3 classes I listed, not the ones she mention when she started the post which are the big offenders. Regardless of the occurrence Tayla is harping on right now, I understand why she is harping on it.

[Ramza00]

Honestly, a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Champion/Dervish sounds like quite a fluffily solid character to me. An elf! A smart, agile, but not terribly strong elf! Who learns to turn his agility and cunning into a powerful fighting style, becoming a terrifyingly effective wielder of elegant elven weapons! (This is fluff, now, independent of how terrifying or effective the character actually is.)

I agree, a Swashbuckler, Fighter, Champion, Dervish just flows together from a fluff perspective.

[Bears With Lasers]

How is having a stronger PrC any different from having a stronger base class or multiclass combination?

[Ramza00]

How is having a stronger PrC any different from having a stronger base class or multiclass combination?

It isn't any different.

The idea though originates from the fallacy that the base classes are equal in power, or at least roughly equal.