Which class is the most overpowered?

[PlatinumJester]

I have been wondering recently which class is the most powerful over all (excluding prestige classes). I mean they are all supposed to be balanced but there must be one class that can is head and shoulders above the rest. Personally I feel that the monk and cleric class are slightly overpowered especially at high levels.

[Bears With Lasers]

The Artificer. It is consistently ridiculous.

The monk is actually one of the weakest classes, not the strongest.

[Tellah]

I second Artificer. Second place goes to the Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage combo.

[Deel]

Top 5 classes that can do pretty much anything:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Artificer
Archivist

That breaks the broken barrier for the most part.

Then the other full-casters like Sorcerer, Favored Soul, ect.

That breaks it the rest of the way.

Then we're just on to the normal good stuff: Tome of Battle classes for melee, Duskblade, Beguiler, Warmage, ect.
.

[Bears With Lasers]

lol @ warmage, as they say on the Webbernets.

[Deel]

Hey, warmage is a one-trick-pony, but he does his one trick fairly well. It's a pew-pew mage, he pew-pews things with his spells, he doesn't disappoint if you want to play a pure blaster mage.

Admittedly, he is better if you take some levels in wizard and go to Ultimate Magus or Mage of Arcane Order for versaility and keep all those slots of his progressing for your pew-pew spells and able to use either the wizards slots or the Arcane Order spell pool for utility, but this is excluding prestige classes.

[PlatinumJester]

The Artificer. It is consistently ridiculous.

The monk is actually one of the weakest classes, not the strongest.

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

Also clerics at level 20 have miracle and true resurection, summon monster 9 and mass heal. Not to mention full Fortitude and Will saves.

[Aquillion]

It depends on the rules and splatbooks you're using, too... like, are you allowing Divine Metamagic? Spells from the Spell Compendium etc? Are you allowing artificers at all (they're pretty setting-specific)? And so on.

There are also different measures of 'overpowered'. A wizard is powerful, say, but still benefits from having a grunt melee guy around to dish out damage to things that have been incapacitated by magic. A twinked-out cleric or druid, on the other hand, might not have quite as effective a spell list as the wizard, but can render melee classes totally obsolete... a wizard at least theoretically has weak points (even if they're not generally very important weak points), while a CoDzilla really doesn't.

In general, if you're allowing more books but not allowing Prestige Classes, druids and clerics win out, since clerics have every spell on their class list while druids get more and more choices for wild shape just for being a druid. If you allow prestige classes, it gets trickier.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Monk is the most overpowered if you consider getting a load of random nonsensical abilities at every level to be a measure of power.

And if you think that a small number 9 on a spells per day table is meaningless.

[Bears With Lasers]

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

2d10 is not a big deal. Quivering palm is very weak as far as save-or-dies go. Improved Evasion's not bad or anything, but ref-save spells are the least dangerous. Damage reduction /magic might as well not exist.
Monks can't do anything but survive, and they're not very good at that either if they get into melee (like to, say, use their Flurry of Blows ability).
Monks: really weak.

Also clerics at level 20 have miracle and true resurection, summon monster 9 and mass heal. Not to mention full Fortitude and Will saves.

Clerics are on of the Big Three (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, the guys who rule core), yes.

[kamikasei]

Also clerics at level 20 have miracle and true resurection, summon monster 9 and mass heal. Not to mention full Fortitude and Will saves.

I don't see anyone contesting that clerics are indeed very strong.

Really, it depends on what classes are available and what options are open to them. The truly broken combo for clerics, for example, requires Complete Divine and Libris Mortis in addition to the core books (if I'm remembering it correctly).

[Jack Mann]

Monks get a lot of stuff, but it doesn't really add up to anything. There isn't much they can do effectively.

[Lapak]

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

He also has a 3/4 BAB, making those weapons far less effective, MAD to deal with, meaning that all of his combat stats will be somewhat lower than a purist melee combatant, and no versatility - his abilities are what they are, and there's no working around that.

He's very tough to kill, definitely - but lacks the ability to do a heck of a lot to other people in exchange.

Also clerics at level 20 have miracle and true resurection, summon monster 9 and mass heal. Not to mention full Fortitude and Will saves.

I don't think anyone would call clerics underpowered, certainly.

[JellyPooga]

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

I used to think like you do, but 1)what's that DR going to do? defeated by magic? who hasn't got a magic weapon at level 20? 2)2d10 weapons? 11 damage average? woooo. Wizards have Time Stop. You use those rather inferior weapons how exactly? 3)quivering palm? You can't count the amount 'save or die' spells available on one hand.

O.k. so Imp Evasion if pretty good..against blaster mages. But it's useless against anything else.

Sorry to shoot you down, but Monks really aren't that good.

[Deel]

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

Also clerics at level 20 have miracle and true resurection, summon monster 9 and mass heal. Not to mention full Fortitude and Will saves.

Nobody is saying you are wrong on clerics, they are indeed awesome.

Monk however... DR 10/magic at level 20 is near meaningless if not just plain so. Dice damage is hardly the biggest factor for damage, 2d10 don't even average over 15 damage, they lose the ability to power attack for more than 1-for-1 through unarmed strikes as well, unless they leap attack on a charge. Quivering Palm is a nice save-or-die effect, but it's once per week, not exactly highly utilizable like anything a spellcaster can do. Saves are high, yes. Monk's can survive well, but other than that, they can't do much, while other classes(see: spellcasters, Tome of Battle classes) can survive AND do a lot of other things.

Hell, I'm pretty sure the Crusader from ToB is even better at surviving than a monk with his healing strikes and damage pool, but I'm on a general ToB loving spree lately, so I may be a bit biased(even if it's true.)

[Ramza00]

Plain Monk's suck. 2d10=11 Average Damage which doesn't even pierce most DR at those levels. Most damage is done due to strength (which a monk can't put in due to MAD) and Power Attack (which a monk can do in theory besides the 1:1 ratio and the medium bab thus making it far weaker).

A monk who is either an Enlightened Fist or has wizard friend can be very effective. Greater Mighty Wallop boosts Damage alot, Blood Fist gives you range, Wraithstrike to hit, GMW for more attack and hit, Greater Mage Armor for more AC, Heroism for more to hit, Heroics for another feat, Overland Flight for fly, Teleportation for other mobility, having some back up spells so you can not act like a monk and like a wizard, False Life for more hit points...I can go on but I won't.

[PlatinumJester]

I don't like monks (due to there annoyingness) but I do think they can be overpowered.

[Bears With Lasers]

But they can't. They've just plain got nothing going for'em besides a decent defense.

[Deel]

Monk itself is still bad as it has to rely on those things to either be cast on him or he needs to multi-class to get him, otherwise he just isn't an effective force.

That being said, I do loves me a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist (optional Vow of Poverty, if you do, take Travel Domain for transport and fly) or a Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist/Abjurant Champion with Ascetic Mage. Those are pretty cool.

[Pink]

http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=20107

I happen to agree with the general consensus that monks aren't very good. However the above was an entry of a friend of mine in a ECL arena. dunno how he did and it's absolutely never going to realistically happen in a game but...it sure is impressive. Seemed appropriate in any event.

[Laurellien]

Barbarian: A decent fighting class, but ultimately it is best used as a spring board for frenzied berserker, berserk and other prestige classes.

Bard: Pah, don't make me laugh, they can't even cast spells properly, if they could wear heavy armour then maybe i'd rate them.

Cleric: A VERY powerful base class. It has a decent hit dice, the capability for heavy armour therefore a high ac, some excellent buff spells (righteous might, shield of faith, divine power etc...) making it a great combatant. Turn Undead, when coupled with divine metamagic (Complete divine) and Night Sticks (a broken item from Libris Mortis which grants +4 turning checks/day and stacks with itself) creates a truly fearsome character, and all without any PrC's/

Druid: A VERY powerful base class, although I am not as experienced as others with it. Needless to say, take a suit of wilded dragonhide full plate and the wild spell feat, and then the sky is the limit. They have the most rounded spell list in the game and can reach level 9 spells too with the capability to heal, summon, damage etc... all without having to select spells known and paying for them and all without ACP.

Monk: A cool class to be sure, but not up to it. Don't be fooled by the column bursting with special abilities, there is nothing another character couldn't do better than a monk. The 3/4 BAB on a primary fighter is criminal, and all a monk can really do is survive, and that's it, otherwise, it's outclassed.

Paladin: A very good class which requires good abilities. The spell list, although limited, has some very good spells on it. It has good BAB and HD, good skills, and some abilities to die for. All in all, an excellent combat choice. If you use the unearthed Arcana Paladin of freedom variant, then you don;t have to be a jackass either (you don't anyway, but most DM's think you do).

Ranger: The ultimate in support fighting. This is a good fighting class, and a great springboard class, but it is inferior to both paladins and barbarians.

FIghter: Sucks, straight fighters can get beaten by BARDS for goodness sake. The only reason that anybody in their right mind would even approach the class is so that they can two dip in it for feats.

Sorcerer: Good caster, cleric and wizard are better.

Wizard: The ultimate game breaker, it has a spell to bypass any obstacle. It also can access the most obscene prestige classes available, such as dweomerkeeper (wish and other spells without exp costs), or initiate of the seven-fold veil (very very good). The only balancing factors for it are its lack of a fort save, lack of a decent HD and no armour or shields.

[Ramza00]

http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=20107

I happen to agree with the general consensus that monks aren't very good. However the above was an entry of a friend of mine in a ECL arena. dunno how he did and it's absolutely never going to realistically happen in a game but...it sure is impressive. Seemed appropriate in any event.

Sigh, 60th lvl epic is a huge can of worms. You aren't playing D&D anymore.

[Laurellien]

The monk at level 20 has 2d10 weapons, full saves, quivering palm, improved evasion and damage reduction magic/10.

2d10? big deal! My level 1 barbarian deals 3d8 damage with his huge dwarven waraxe.

Full saves? A character with even a sprinkling of multiclass can get huge saves.

quivering palm? A save or die 1/day. A Cleric or wizard at level 20 is pumping out save or die spells every round with very high DC's.

Improved evasion? Clerics, wizards and druids can all heal themselves or grant themselves temporary hp to counter that, plus they can cast protection from energy and 9 times out of ten they will negate that sort of spell anyway.

DR/magic? It sucks, at those high levels, everything will be dealing some sort of magical damage, or worse, ability damage, spells can be used that will make that obsolete in a split second.

[Telonius]

Monks can't be overpowered without some major houseruling. Your level 20 monk hits for 2d10? Even if he hit somebody with all of his attacks, that's 55 +5(strength) points of damage in a round, assuming they all hit. A not-particularly-optimized barbarian will hit for 2d6+40 per hit. Don't let the big die size fool you. When you're talking about dealing melee damage, it's all about power attack and sneak attack.

The biggest problem with Monks is their lack of full BAB. If they got that, they'd be pretty close to even with Fighters and Barbarians.

[Deel]

Okay guys, I think we beat the monk thing to death already. Like 4 people at least, including me.

And Quivering Palm is once per WEEK, not day, as I recall. Once per day would be fairly nice though.

[Murongo]

Yea, monks are weak. And druids and clerics are certainly above any other class.

I don't think wizards are in the same league as clerics and druids though. They're situationally awesome, but every once in a while I find them to be entirely useless. Like when they can't conveniently protect/carry/read their flimsy paper book. Or when they can't make their concentration check. Or against spell immune... yeah you get the idea.

Druids and clerics are pretty much awesome 100% of the time.

[Dausuul]

Yea, monks are weak. And druids and clerics are certainly above any other class.

I don't think wizards are in the same league as clerics and druids though. They're situationally awesome, but every once in a while I find them to be entirely useless. Like when they can't conveniently protect/carry/read their flimsy paper book. Or when they can't make their concentration check. Or against spell immune... yeah you get the idea.

A wizard with time to prepare can deal with all of these problems quite handily. The key phrase here, of course, is "with time to prepare."

Druids and clerics are pretty much awesome 100% of the time.

*shrug* Wizards are specialists. A high-level wizard who has time to identify and prepare for any given threat is the scariest character in the game, bar none, and can easily smoke opponents who would trounce a cleric or druid. On the other hand, wizards have limited ability to react quickly to unexpected obstacles. Sure, they can teleport away, re-prep spells, and come back a day later ready to kick ass and take names, but in a time-sensitive situation that may not be an acceptable option. Clerics and druids have more raw fighting power to fall back on.

Of course, the splatbooks allowed also makes a big difference. Wizards get a major power boost if they can get things like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Each of the Big Three shines in its own special, horribly broken way.

[Tokiko Mima]

Monks need full BAB, Abundant Step at will, Quivering Palm to be a full round action (available at will), and DR of 10/-. Then Monks would be on par with other classes, IMO.

That'd be nice, huh?

In answer to the OP's question: I would say Artificer. After that, Cleric and Druid, then Wizard. Then Archivist.

[PlatinumJester]

OK, it seems that we have proven me wrong about monks and established that they are worthless

[PlatinumJester]

By the way do favoured souls choose domains like a cleric?