Has D&D ever described force?

[Talakeal]

Something that keeps coming up in the Leomunds Tiny Hut thread is that we dont have a clear definitin of exactly what "force" is.

Some people say that is magic given physical form and has the properties of a tangible object.

Other people say that it acts like a real world force; ie something akin to gravity, electromagnetic, or nuclear forces which can be attractive or repulsive and is concentrated in fields.

The books dont seem to take one side or the other, and the rules we do get for force effects are somewhat inconsistent and often times downright baffling like the 3e orb of force spell.

Questions of whether or not fields can be destroyed, moved, climbed, or pushed through come up all the time both on the forum and at my table, as do questions about whether air, sound, ligt, heat, energy, etc. can pass through a force effect. How much damage, if any, does something suffer if it runs into a force effect?


So, my question is, does anyone know if any d&d book in any edition has actually directly addressed the question of what force IS in the context of the d&d game.

[Eloel]

Midichlorians?

[Telok]

In 3.5 there are Force Ladder, Wall, and Cage which all give attributes to force effects. Perfectly transparent, immune to physical damage or manipulation of any kind including chemical, electrical, and thermal effects.

Yeah, the 3.5 orb spells are pretty stupid once you look at them any closer than 'touch attack = damage'.

[Karl Aegis]

It gets worse when you realize nothing is ever given a mass and there is no reference to any real world distances given anywhere. That 6' 2" 190 pound human could very well be 40 meters tall and have a mass of 20,000 kg. Nobody knows how many newtons it takes for a person this size to move anything. The planet they're on could not be hurtling through space and rotating at an exceptional speed for all we know. Force effects certainly ignore the "can't be moved" rule if the planet does move at all because the force effects move with the planet. It gets worse if the planet isn't moving: This means objects in space don't exert gravity on each other. Science breaks down entirely if you think about how the system handles physics for too long.

[Talakeal]

It gets worse when you realize nothing is ever given a mass and there is no reference to any real world distances given anywhere. That 6' 2" 190 pound human could very well be 40 meters tall and have a mass of 20,000 kg. Nobody knows how many newtons it takes for a person this size to move anything. The planet they're on could not be hurtling through space and rotating at an exceptional speed for all we know. Force effects certainly ignore the "can't be moved" rule if the planet does move at all because the force effects move with the planet. It gets worse if the planet isn't moving: This means objects in space don't exert gravity on each other. Science breaks down entirely if you think about how the system handles physics for too long.

Sage advice used to have a default ruling for the game, if the rules dont say how something reacts you can assume that it works the same way as it does in real life. This solves a lot of problems and prevents the sort of ridiculous scenario you have described above, but the problem is force effects dont have a real world analogy to compare them to.

Also, I dont quite get why you say that the game lacks any sort of referances to real life units, the books are full of measurements given in feet and pounds, and I dont have any idea why you would assume that something explicitly said to be 6'2'' is actually 40 meters.

[Sacrieur]

It gets worse when you realize nothing is ever given a mass and there is no reference to any real world distances given anywhere. That 6' 2" 190 pound human could very well be 40 meters tall and have a mass of 20,000 kg. Nobody knows how many newtons it takes for a person this size to move anything. The planet they're on could not be hurtling through space and rotating at an exceptional speed for all we know. Force effects certainly ignore the "can't be moved" rule if the planet does move at all because the force effects move with the planet. It gets worse if the planet isn't moving: This means objects in space don't exert gravity on each other. Science breaks down entirely if you think about how the system handles physics for too long.

You can use falling rules to calculate the force of gravity.

Or you can just use 32 ft. per second². Maybe even 30 for simplicity.

[Anxe]

In the 3.5 Complete Arcane book the Argent Savant prestige class gives a small description.

"Of all the energies summoned or shaped by magic, force is perhaps the most pure. No analog for this power exists in the physical world; it comes into being only through the medium of spells, and therefore represents a perfection of intent that contradicts the imperfection of the everchanging world and its mutable elements."

Not the greatest description, but its something to go on.

[Cealocanth]

In the 3.5 Complete Arcane book the Argent Savant prestige class gives a small description.

"Of all the energies summoned or shaped by magic, force is perhaps the most pure. No analog for this power exists in the physical world; it comes into being only through the medium of spells, and therefore represents a perfection of intent that contradicts the imperfection of the everchanging world and its mutable elements."

Not the greatest description, but its something to go on.

So dissecting this, force is:

• 'pure' energy summoned and/or shaped by magic
• incomparable to any existing medium
• created by spells
• somehow represents the intent of the user
• creates a semblance of pure, unchangeable order (not really that useful.)

So force is a form of magical energy that can take physical shape, much like that distilled in residuum or the stuff summoned by psychics. It takes the form of whatever the user wants it to, as described by the specifications of the spell that creates it. It can be summoned with magical energies, but not created from nothing. It will, however, dissipate into oblivion when the spell duration ends. Due to the vagueness of this, one could also assume that since force can be used to make tangible (if invisible) objects, then force can be used for pretty much anything a tangible object can be used for. This means force could create physical barriers as well as do things like pushing, pulling, lifting, throwing, etc.

If you think about it, this definition fits the common idea of what a 'force field' is pretty well. It's invisible, yet creates some sort of physical effect on the world, like making an invisible, impenetrable barrier.

[Sacrieur]

Can you paint a wall of force? Do things stick to it?

If not it must be frictionless, which is weird since that would make riding a floating disk difficult. It's also 120% abusable.

If it does have friction, that means because this disk has zero mass, you can use a floating disk as a spinning disk of death and destruction. Call it Tenser's buzzsaw.

The more I think about this the more I like it.

[Telok]

Interesting bits:

Spell Engine is a Abjuration[force] spell with no force effect.

Enveloping Cocoon, Evocation[force]: "A cocoon of force encloses a creature of size Large or smaller, containing it for the spell's duration or until the cocoon is destroyed. The cocoon has hardness 10 and 10 hit points per caster level."

Our favorite, Orb of Force Conjuration[creation]: "You create a globe of force 3 inches across, which streaks from your palm toward your target."
Conjuration[creation]

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

So Orb of Force manipulates matter into a force object that is permanent and non-magical.

Death Throes is uncapped Necromancy[force] spell which is a weird school/descriptor combo. Apparently life force is also [force].

Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force.

Oh, hey we reference life force in Stone to Flesh too:

The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available.

[JAL_1138]

It gets worse when you realize nothing is ever given a mass and there is no reference to any real world distances given anywhere. That 6' 2" 190 pound human could very well be 40 meters tall and have a mass of 20,000 kg. Nobody knows how many newtons it takes for a person this size to move anything. The planet they're on could not be hurtling through space and rotating at an exceptional speed for all we know. Force effects certainly ignore the "can't be moved" rule if the planet does move at all because the force effects move with the planet. It gets worse if the planet isn't moving: This means objects in space don't exert gravity on each other. Science breaks down entirely if you think about how the system handles physics for too long.

Do you...not know US Customary measurements? (There are differences between US and Imperial, but not for feet, inches, and pounds.) While pounds aren't used for mass often in scientific literature, they are a unit of mass, like the kilogram, rather than of weight. The word "pound" is also used as a shortened version of the name of a unit of force, called the "pound force," defined as the force exerted by a mass of 1 avordupois pound on the surface of Earth. 1lb (avordupois) =0.453592kg. 1' = 0.3048 meters, and accordingly 1" (12" to 1') =2.54 cm.

[Flickerdart]

Death Throes is uncapped Necromancy[force] spell which is a weird school/descriptor combo. Apparently life force is also [force].

I wouldn't go that far - while Necromancy spells manipulate those things in general, it doesn't mean that every instance of [Force] they manipulate must be life force. School descriptions don't strictly curtail what that school's spells can do.

[Talakeal]

I wouldn't go that far - while Necromancy spells manipulate those things in general, it doesn't mean that every instance of [Force] they manipulate must be life force. School descriptions don't strictly curtail what that school's spells can do.

Yeah, I am pretty sure in the context of Death Throes it is a force spell because it causes an explosion rather than because it manipulates life force, which imo means that atleast one D&D author thought that shockwaves were a type of "force".

[Segev]

THe word "force" is, obviously, overloaded. In the context of force effects, it refers to something which is not "matter," but which has the properties of a solid object in terms of its permeability.

The potentially contradictory elements of whether or not it has friction can be resolved by accepting that it is magic, and that its behavior is at least partially going to conform to Aristotilean and Newtonian expectations of how such objects interact with the world.

Thinking of it like a sort of non-breakable, perfectly rigid glass may help.

That should be sufficient for imagining force effects that generate walls or "object"-like structures.

For damaging force effects, you can think of it like a solid glass bead or bullet for the most part. A Force Dragon's breath is a little weird in that sense, since it isn't a wall pushing you anywhere; it probably is more akin to being subjected to intense hyperpressure; so like being crushed.

One final characteristic of force effects: they interact with ethereal and incorporeal matter just as well as with material matter.


If you want to really delve into fluff and "laws of physics in a magical world" sort of discussions, one could take it very literally. Force is literally an acceleration vector exerted on mass which approaches or enters its influence.

By this notion, the wall of force (perhaps the simplest of the force effects to discuss) would be a plane which exerts an acceleratory vector on matter which tries to pass it, exactly stopping and pushing back against its momentum and countering any external force attempting to push through it. It is indestructible because there's nothing there to destroy; simply anything that attempts to move beyond that barrier has exactly enough force to negate its motion exerted against it.

A floating disk would thus operate similarly, though it has a limit to how much force it actually can exert (beyond which it "winks out"). in addition, the floating disk exerts force not just to exactly counter force on whatever is attempting to pass its surface, but in a friction-like fashion, laterally, to keep things it is currently supporting moving along with it. It has perfect friction without being "sticky" because it will not resist removing things from its surface.

Force damage, such as magic missiles, explosive runes, and a force dragon's breath, likely simply shoves on every particle of the beings touched, but not uniformly. Thus, tidal forces ripple through the victims, pulverizing blood vessels and, in higher damage cases, bones. Magic missiles may actually be miniature points of outward-facing vectors, tearing through matter by forcing it all away from the central point (and creating bullet-like wounds where strong enough to actually tear open a hole).

These vectors clearly exert themselves against all manner of matter, which is why incorporeal things find themselves as affected as corporeal things.

[Cealocanth]

That's really weird. I wonder if the magical ability to generate movement (or resist movement) in any matter in a fixed location was what the game designers actually planned when they made all this stuff. Maybe they were planning something more along the lines of the conjured multicolored crystals that you see in certain media.

So exploring the force phenomenon further, it has some scary implications. If there is a way to magically generate what are essentially invisible unbreakable projectiles at high velocity that can penetrate anything assuming the caster is strong enough, then a group of relatively strong casters or even a magical device could theoretically summon gigantic swarms of the things, shredding entire armies in seconds. What could make a reasonable source of power for such a doomsday device?

Edit: Thinking about it further, this is probably the source of certain spells enhancing weapons. Maybe the generic +X magic weapons have added force spells on them that causes them to better cut or hit things, simply because they are infused with a spell that adds velocity or extra tearing power to the weapon. Maybe this is the mysterious source of the Vorpal weapon as well. Is there a force spell that can effectively make an object invincible, or give the user impenetrable invisible armor? I love exploring weird things like this.

[Maglubiyet]

If you want to really delve into fluff and "laws of physics in a magical world" sort of discussions, one could take it very literally. Force is literally an acceleration vector exerted on mass which approaches or enters its influence.

By this notion, the wall of force (perhaps the simplest of the force effects to discuss) would be a plane which exerts an acceleratory vector on matter which tries to pass it, exactly stopping and pushing back against its momentum and countering any external force attempting to push through it. It is indestructible because there's nothing there to destroy; simply anything that attempts to move beyond that barrier has exactly enough force to negate its motion exerted against it

This is a brilliant summary. I'm not the OP, but let me thank you for that.

So it would not be possible to stand on top of a horizontal Wall of Force because the slightest lateral motion would cause you to slide off like a puck on an air hockey table.

What about the internal temperature of the Hut tracking the outside temp by 100 degrees F? Is it by air flow? Heat transmission? It's easy to say "magic" and handwave it away -- just curious about your thoughts.

[The Evil DM]

The following is an introductory excerpt on Magic from my heavily homebrewed game universe.

Spoiler: Magic in The Evil DM's universe

Show

Magic
In the Cardian Universe magic is a physical force that can be used in energy interactions and energy and matter conversions as an additional form of physical energy in the same manner as heat, or electricity. The manipulation of magic can either sink excess physical energy, or source magic to be transformed into an alternate form of physical energy. In practice spells are defined but the author uses this principle to model and balance magic systems based on total energy required to create a magical effect.

Magical energy can be used to balance a physical equation in a manner that will break the normal laws of physics. For instance launching an object out of one’s hand imparts kinetic energy to the object. The size and weight of the object determines the total energy required to launch the object. The total energy required determines spell level and possible effects of caster level on spell power.

Players need not know physics to use the spells. Rather the system is defined such that the spell descriptions and effects include the physics.

In the Cardian Universe, spell level has no arbitrary limit. A cantrip uses a maximum of one unit (x) of energy. A first level spell is between (x) and 2(x) units of energy. A second level spell is between 2(x) and 4(x) units of energy. The doubling of energy per spell level continues indefinitely.

Mortals using magic have their ability to access and channel the energy determined by ability scores. The ability score limits place a practical limit on mortal magic to between 7th and 9th level. A very rare few mortals achieve power beyond this. However, gods and immortals quite frequently know and possess magical abilities of extreme proportions.

Type of Magic Use
With magic defined as a source of physical energy, the distinction between spell effects can be blurred. A fireball is a fireball whether or not you crack open a portal between the Prime and the Plane of Fire long enough to lets some fire spew forth, or you evoke flame through arcane might, or you pray to your gods to smite your enemies with flame, and possibly even use pyrokinesis to will the flames of a torch to burst violently. All forms of casters use the same amount of energy to achieve the same end result or effect.

Two axis dualities are common in the Cardian Universe as a consequence of the Equation. Air is opposite Earth. Fire is opposite water. Law is opposite Chaos. And Good is opposite Evil. In magic, Internal Discipline is opposite External Discipline and Arcane Energy is opposite Divine Energy. This pair of dualities creates four types of magic practitioners.

In regards to spell effect the source and discipline are arbitrary, but the story and descriptive matter varies significantly based on type of caster and the means through which the energy is manipulated.

In the Cardian Universe there are four types of casters.

Arcane: Casters who manipulate magic through study, geometry, intoned sounds and other means. The art and discipline is external to the caster but the energy is Arcane. This is the classic wizard archetype

Divine: Casters who manipulate magic through prayers and participation in the collective consciousness of the divine will of their Celestial Patron. The art and discipline is external to the caster but the energy is Divine. This is the classic cleric archetype.

Spirit: Casters who manipulate magic through the connection with the life force and spirit that flows through the universe: This art is internal to the caster but the energy is Divine. This is the classic Druid Archetype.

Psionic: Casters who manipulate magic through internal discipline and mastery of one’s own spirit and soul. This art is internal to the caster and the energy is Arcane. This is the classic psionicist archetype.

Technology
Technology varies from world to world but within the context of the entire Cardian Universe it is possible to have all forms of technology. Various worlds have abandoned magic for technology entirely. Other worlds have primitive technology with high magic, and others blend the two in steampunk fashion.

Defining magic as a form of physical energy that can be inserted into real world physics and engineering equations enables the insertion of magic into technology while simultaneously keeping the overall style and mechanics consistent. It is possible to define a spell that allows an automobile to operate at 25% greater energy efficiency and reduce fuel consumption. This change in fuel consumption can be used to derive the amount of energy provided by the magic and the resulting spell level and necessary spell effect within the magic system.

Various forms of Technomancy can be defined and exist alongside pure fantasy and spiritual forms of magic.

In that regard to the system I listed above, Segev's description is exactly how I analyze power of a spell. Wall of Force is not completely indestructible in my world because that would imply infinite energy, but it essentially it absorbs and redirects momentum.

for thermal effects I use the same sort of analysis. A spell generates heat and flame where shortly before there was none is a relatively easy task to analyze. In regards to Maglubiyets hut question, it would depend on the design of the hut but ultimately it would be an energy dissipation across the barrier.

However, in order to integrate physics in this manner, I had to completely rewrite magic for the games. It was years of work.

EDIT

A physics interpretation of magical missiles and those sort of force could be high energy photons.

[erikun]

I recall the D&D3.5e psionic handbooks mentioning a number of times, where [Force] effects were generally described as ectoplasm and a raw portion of the Astral Plane. At least, that's how I remembered them being described. Perhaps it's more a description of psionic effects rather than [Force] effects, though.

[Slipperychicken]

If you ask me, I think that force damage should be completely phased out and replaced by bludgeoning. It's essentially the same thing, only force is allowed to bypass resistances because it's magic.

[Ettina]

I recall the D&D3.5e psionic handbooks mentioning a number of times, where [Force] effects were generally described as ectoplasm and a raw portion of the Astral Plane. At least, that's how I remembered them being described. Perhaps it's more a description of psionic effects rather than [Force] effects, though.

I'd say it's more psionics than force effects. After all, one of the displays is:

Material
The subject or the area is briefly slicked with a translucent, shimmering substance. The glistening substance evaporates after 1 round regardless of the power’s duration. Sophisticated psions recognize the material as ectoplasmic seepage from the Astral Plane; this substance is completely inert.

To me, that strongly implies a connection between psionics and the Astral Plane.

[Admiral Squish]

The idea of force damage bothers me. If force effect act like physical objects, wouldn't any damage they do be treated as though dealt by a similar object? Like, wall of blades, for example. Why would a blade of force deal more damage to a skeleton than a metal sword doing the exact same thing?

[Lord Torath]

I always assumed that "Force Damage" was a stand-in for damage-by-pure-magic. Rather than using magic to create fire and cook you're target, you're using magic to directly harm your target.

[Segev]

This is a brilliant summary. I'm not the OP, but let me thank you for that.

Thank you, and you're quite welcome. I do enjoy this kind of analysis, as long as it stays ... is "light-heartedly serious" a sensible phrase?

So it would not be possible to stand on top of a horizontal Wall of Force because the slightest lateral motion would cause you to slide off like a puck on an air hockey table.

One could theorize it that way, though it's patently not how force effects work as written. Therefore, I would posit that, like the floating disk, force effects negate lateral motion as well as perpendicular, but only insofar as it's exerted directly along them. i.e., the acceleration vectors are not limited to being perpendicular to the plane, but have (perhaps with decreasing magnitude) opposite direction to whatever forces are exerted against the plane.

This would result in, I think, a rather smooth-feeling surface, but not one which was 100% sticky nor totally slick. Akin to, though probably not identical to, glass.

What about the internal temperature of the Hut tracking the outside temp by 100 degrees F? Is it by air flow? Heat transmission? It's easy to say "magic" and handwave it away -- just curious about your thoughts.

I hadn't thought of heat transmission. I will start by saying that it is possible - even probable - that the thermal properties of the tiny hut are not directly related to it being a force effect. However, to analyze it a bit more deeply...

For a barier like the wall of force, which stops all motion across it, it would be a perfect thermal insulator, as well, at least for convection (obviously, as no air travels across it) and conduction (because the field would prevent kinetic energy transfer from particles on one side to the other). It is not, however, noted to be a property of the spell. Yet, it blocks energies which would be "harmful." So it probably would keep changes in temperature out. Might make resilient spheres get stuffy pretty fast.

The tiny hut, on the other hand, is selectively permeable. You can walk in or out of it at will, and you can even fire in and out of it with projectiles and the like. It keeps out rain and snow and unpleasantly strong winds, and keeps in smoke, so it allows transfer of only breatheable air, it seems. It also won't stop liquids contained in things (as it only lists precipitation, which could reasonably be translated to non-damaging splashing of water, though it's not specific there).

This makes it pretty well fall under the "it's magic; deal with it" heading. It's just too selective. While a certain amount of resistive force effect could be justified for the temperature insulation, it still doesn't quite work: cast tiny hut, and you have a comfortable zone of temperature instantly within it. So it's pretty much just magic.

That said, there is a force effect: the repulsion of precipitation and smoke (both ways) can be said to be selective force applied just as discussed before, but only to the named items of air, gas, and particulate matter.

The idea of force damage bothers me. If force effect act like physical objects, wouldn't any damage they do be treated as though dealt by a similar object? Like, wall of blades, for example. Why would a blade of force deal more damage to a skeleton than a metal sword doing the exact same thing?

I always assumed that "Force Damage" was a stand-in for damage-by-pure-magic. Rather than using magic to create fire and cook you're target, you're using magic to directly harm your target.

This is the easiest way to look at it. If you want to dig deeper and try to define it as we've been hypothesizing, then you could say that the force effect is, essentially, disruptive force, shoving the matter around on a material level in all sorts of directions.

A "sword of force" is a force effect in the shape of a sword, but its shape is not as relevant as the area it overlaps with the target. The force effect literally exerts direct force - directly applying acceleration vectors - either pushing matter out of its area in disruptive, breaking forms, or crushing the matter against itself within. A magic missile or a mace-shaped force or any other force-type damage would thus be direct material breakdown. It's crushing and/or tearing forces applied directly "inside" the matter where it overlaps.

If it's tearing - that is, it's pushing outwards - that would explain it behaving a bit like matter in that it shoves the target a bit: the ripping force is "out" of the force effect's area, thus shoving it ahead where it hits the leading edge, and where it overlaps, tearing it apart from the inside.

It's not infinite force; matter which can take the strain won't break. But it's still causing damage.

[Talakeal]

Leomunds Tiny Hut actually modifies temperature in most editions. Iirc If it is between zero and one hundred degress outside the shere it is always seventy degrees inside. If it is over one hundred the temperature in the sphere is thirty degrees cooler than outisde, and if it below zero outside seventy degrees warmer. This is in ferhenheit.

[Segev]

Leomunds Tiny Hut actually modifies temperature in most editions. Iirc If it is between zero and one hundred degress outside the shere it is always seventy degrees inside. If it is over one hundred the temperature in the sphere is thirty degrees cooler than outisde, and if it below zero outside seventy degrees warmer. This is in ferhenheit.

Yeah, I was saying that that probably isn't a function of it being a force effect, but just falls under "it's magic."

[GungHo]

I always assumed that "Force Damage" was a stand-in for damage-by-pure-magic. Rather than using magic to create fire and cook you're target, you're using magic to directly harm your target.

Generally, I'd read damage by pure magic to be "arcane damage" or "magic damage". Force damage, to me, is like being hit by an invisible rock. It doesn't look like a rock. You can't pick it up to throw it back. But, it damn sure felt like you were hit by a rock given that you were struck by something that felt like it had absolutely no give, whereas you most certainly did give when you doubled up and went down to the floor like you were hit in the solar plexus by Mike Tyson.

[Flickerdart]

Given that force affects incorporeal and ethereal creatures, it seems to be more than just mere kinetic energy.

[LibraryOgre]

Best bet would be Player's Option: Spells and Magic, but I don't recall if it was. I've always interpreted it as being somewhat akin to a "force field"... more or less air made somewhat solid, ranging from the impenetrable wall of force, to the largely permeable Tiny Hut.