Dragon vs. Wizard

[Saph]

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Antimagic Field is always centered caster (10-ft-radius emanation, centered on you to quote the PHB). Furthermore, since it is only of ten foot radius, once the dragon grows beyond large size, the field no longer covers him entirely, leaving him vulnerable to spells.

Wouldn't that mean that the field expands to be 10 feet beyond his occupied squares?

If it doesn't, I've no idea how to DM it, since part of the dragon is inside the field and part isn't.

- Saph

[Ulzgoroth]

Ten foot radius, not diameter. Huge fits in that fine (15 feet on a side, isn't it), but larger might have problems. Widening fixes that pretty well though.

[Indon]

What if the dragon maxes diplomacy and talks the wizard out of killing him?

Successful though this may be, (Seriously, why have a dragon going around hunting wizards when he could be going around making allies of them?) I suspect it falls under 'cheese'.

Edit: Also...

Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.

If that were true, Dragons could use breath weapons in antimagic, because their lungs have cover from the AMF.

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

[Saph]

Bluff would be funnier. A lot of dragons get it as a class skill, and they have the HD and Charisma to make good use of it. The average wizard has less than +5 to Sense Motive, so a dragon should easily be able to get a Bluff score of 40 points higher than that. That means, by RAW, the dragon can tell any lie it likes and have the wizard believe it.

Wizard: "I'm here to slay you, dragon!"
Dragon: "Well, I know I can't beat you in combat, so what if I gave you my hoard instead? I keep it in that dull black sphere there."
Wizard: "That thing looks like one of those annihilation spheres . . ."
Dragon: "Oh no, it's the latest in extradimensional storage space. Kind of like the upgrade to a Handy Haversack. All the epic-level guys are upgrading to them. You just reach in and pull out whatever you like."
Wizard: "Oh, okay then."
*bzzzt*
Dragon: "Oops."

- Saph

[Woot Spitum]

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

Unless they're inherently magical, in which case a dragon in an antimagic field dies due to its lungs winking out of existence.

[Bears With Lasers]

If that were true, Dragons could use breath weapons in antimagic, because their lungs have cover from the AMF.

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

Sorry, no. D&D Doesn't Work That Way. Dragon's can't use breath weapon in antimagic because it's a (Su) ability. That's it. Nothing to do with organs. Someone inside the dragon has full cover from the AMF and therefore is unaffected by it. The dragon itself is affected by its own AMF.

[kpenguin]

There we go. I should also point out that you never said the dragon had to be CR20 in return. My result has a CR46 monster fighting a CR20 wizard.

Nothing in the rules said that the wizard had to lvl 20 either. My lv 100 god-wizard kills your puny CR46 dragon! Rules have been updated to specify CR 20dragon vs. lvl 20 wizard.

Anyway, on the AMF, would the the rules state that you must place an emanation on a point on the grid. However, emantions centered on you are placed on a point on the grid adjacent to square which you cover. Could you specify that this point is within the dragon and thus covers the stomach?

[deadseashoals]

Sorry, no. D&D Doesn't Work That Way. Dragon's can't use breath weapon in antimagic because it's a (Su) ability. That's it. Nothing to do with organs. Someone inside the dragon has full cover from the AMF and therefore is unaffected by it. The dragon itself is affected by its own AMF.

Presumably, because the dragon's constituent body parts block line of effect? However, it's not that clear for a couple of reasons.

1) It's not as if the rules specify where on the creature an emanation starts. If it starts in the "center" of the creature, that would mean that everything has total cover from the emanation, and it does nothing.

2) Line of effect behaves like line of sight, except that it is not blocked by factors that limit normal sight. Creatures do not block line of sight. Why would part of a creature block line of effect?

[Yahzi]

Basically, the Dragon can be a Wizard+.

I'm pretty sure the answer to, "Can a dragon beat a wizard?" cannot possibly be, "Yes, by becoming a wizard."



You provide a great analysis. The simple answer seems to be that every dragon at least sleeps in an AMF. Either they learn to make it, or they buy one.

"Yes, the dragon has a valuable hoard. It consists of this portable AMF field, which keeps him alive."

[Draz74]

One thing to note whenever optimizing dragons, and class levels are an option:

One level of Sorcerer, besides slightly upgrading your existing spellcasting, will get you a familiar. Which isn't all that appealing for PCs ... but a dragon's familiar will have godlike HP and BAB.

Now, if only there was a familiar available with 13 Str, you could have it take Power Attack and it would actually be a viable melee threat. Not that a Dragon needs more of a melee threat on its side, but a familiar being a melee threat is just so novel ...

But in any case, I'm sure there's effective things to do with a nigh-invincible familiar. Especially in non-core, where you can have your familiar cast your spells while you (the dragon) just fight and breathe.

[Beleriphon]

Nothing in the rules said that the wizard had to lvl 20 either. My lv 100 god-wizard kills your puny CR46 dragon! Rules have been updated to specify CR 20dragon vs. lvl 20 wizard.

Yes, you did specify a level 20 wizard. I just checked.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm pretty sure the answer to, "Can a dragon beat a wizard?" cannot possibly be, "Yes, by becoming a wizard."

Well, in this case, the question was how do you build a CR 20 dragon that can beat a level 20 Wizard. It's an odd response, but it works. Technically.

The Silver dragon I listed would have Fighter-20 BAB (10 dragon HD with full BAB, 20 Wizard HD with 1/2 BAB = +20 BAB), more HP than a raging Barbarian (10 d12 Dragon HD, 20 d4 Wizard HD, and a racial Con bonus that's pretty nice ... okay, he'd Match the raging barbarian for HP), better base saves than the Monk-20 (+7/+7/+7 from Dragon HD, +6/+6/+12 from the Wizard HD make for +13/+13/+19, vs. the Monk-20's +12/+12/+12), and so on. Plus full Wizard casting and bonus feats. Clearly, a Wiz-20 with 10 dragon Hit Dice and some nifty draconic abilities is not the same CR 20 encounter that a Human Wizard-20 is. Yet by CR guidelines as written, they are supposedly the same challenge. It's why I kept throwing words like "technically" and "officially" in there. The intended lesson is that CR Guidelines are guidelines. But it works as a solution to the mental excersize, too.

If you'd prefer, I could get comperable results by replacing Wizard-20 with Cleric-20. The +4 racial Wisdom b onus works just as well as the +4 Racial Intelligence bonus. Or Artificer-20. Or Warlock-20. Or just about anything else which, with a large amount of prep time, can do essentially anything.

You provide a great analysis. The simple answer seems to be that every dragon at least sleeps in an AMF. Either they learn to make it, or they buy one.

I did not have my dragon sleeping in an AMF. But that is the simplest way to do it, yes... if you can find a reasonable way to get a semi-permanent anti-magic field.

"Yes, the dragon has a valuable hoard. It consists of this portable AMF field, which keeps him alive."

Which, I'm sure you'll agree, makes it very valuable indeed.... to the Dragon.

One thing to note whenever optimizing dragons, and class levels are an option:

One level of Sorcerer, besides slightly upgrading your existing spellcasting, will get you a familiar. Which isn't all that appealing for PCs ... but a dragon's familiar will have godlike HP and BAB.

Now, if only there was a familiar available with 13 Str, you could have it take Power Attack and it would actually be a viable melee threat. Not that a Dragon needs more of a melee threat on its side, but a familiar being a melee threat is just so novel ...

But in any case, I'm sure there's effective things to do with a nigh-invincible familiar. Especially in non-core, where you can have your familiar cast your spells while you (the dragon) just fight and breathe.

Improved Familiar, Formian Worker. Improved Familiar, Small Earth Elemental. Improved Familiar, Small Water Elemental - all have Str of 13+.

Do note, though, that familiars don't normally get feats outside the MM entry for the base critter, as their HD don't actually improve (unlike a Psicrystal, Animal Companion, or the Paladin's Mount).

[Aquillion]

The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works.

Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.

I'm not sure if the dragon could just raise it again when the wizard tries to take their readied action, but I think not.

Also, can we take a Kobold, add the Dragonwraught Kobold feat to them so they count as a dragon, then use them to solve this? Because then it goes from being "make a dragon that beats wizard 20" to "make any build using a kobold and one wasted feat that beats wizard 20" which, despite the disadvantages, is not particularly hard.

I like the "legally, I am a dragon!" explaination, though.

[kpenguin]

Look at the rules, it states specifically that the base creature must be one of the true dragons.

[Kel_Arath]

Grapple. Simple as that.

[Jack_Simth]

Grapple. Simple as that.

Mild issue - Rings of Freedom of Movement are pretty much standard equipment for Wizards. That, and at 20th, a Wizard can usually make the Concentration check for the Quickened Teleport with no problems (Dimension Door has this horrid little clause about not being able to act, afterwards).

An Antimagic Field would of course nullify that quite effectively....

[Renegade Paladin]

Anticipate teleportation is all the dragon needs; preferably the greater version. He acts before your time stop goes off, and you die. Or if your time stop is cast before you teleport, it's duration ticks down while you're suspended and you don't know about it, so your timing will be off and your spell will end a round or three before you expect it to. That adds up to a very dead wizard.

[Saph]

Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.

Ah, but you see, that's why Permanent Emanation is so powerful. With a PE'd AMF, raising it or lowering it is a free action. Free actions are the fastest type in D&D. There's no limit to how many you can do in a round, or when you can do them. If you liked, you could flick the AMF on and off a hundred times before the wizard had even completed his move. That's why it's my favourite of the options here.

But it's unnecessary anyway. Take Snatch and Improved Snatch. Have your AMF up. Land next to the wizard. Laugh as all his armour and defensive buffs are negated, including his ring of freedom of movement. Grab him and start snacking.

- Saph

[TRM]

Dragons can cast spells as a sorcerer!
Just cast the antimagic field, fly up to the wizard (who conveniently can't do anything to you) and kill them!
Have you ever heard of a 20th level wizard defeating a CR20 dragon in melee?
They teleport?
You teleport after them!
If they can't affect you (because of you being coated in an antimagic field) I would call that a win.

Anti-Magic Field has a 10ft radius, which gives it an area of about 300ft.Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.

I'm not sure if the dragon could just raise it again when the wizard tries to take their readied action, but I think not.

I see no reason why the dragon would want to lower the antimagic field (especially if the wizard is just sitting there with his readied action.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The thing is, there are quite a few spells that can affect the dragon in the antimagic field. And there's a spell that allows you to cast any 4th level and lower spell even within AMFs, dead magic zones and null magic planes. So yes, a wizard can still defeat a dragon under an antimagic field-but ONLY if the wizard has specifically prepared for something like that.

[Draz74]

Ah, but you see, that's why Permanent Emanation is so powerful. With a PE'd AMF, raising it or lowering it is a free action. Free actions are the fastest type in D&D. There's no limit to how many you can do in a round, or when you can do them. If you liked, you could flick the AMF on and off a hundred times before the wizard had even completed his move. That's why it's my favourite of the options here.

Nope -- actually, there's no limit (except a recommended DM fiat) on how many free actions you can do in a round ... but there is a limit on when you can do them. They're on your turn only, except for a few that say otherwise.

[deadseashoals]

The thing is, there are quite a few spells that can affect the dragon in the antimagic field. And there's a spell that allows you to cast any 4th level and lower spell even within AMFs, dead magic zones and null magic planes. So yes, a wizard can still defeat a dragon under an antimagic field-but ONLY if the wizard has specifically prepared for something like that.

1) You can't cast in an antimagic field, even if your spells can go through it.

2) What spell is this? Where is it from? And how would that even work? The spell itself would be suppressed in an antimagic field.

3) How many spells does the wizard have that can be cast while grappled and pinned in an antimagic field?

[Jack_Simth]

1) You can't cast in an antimagic field, even if your spells can go through it.

2) What spell is this? Where is it from? And how would that even work? The spell itself would be suppressed in an antimagic field.

3) How many spells does the wizard have that can be cast while grappled and pinned in an antimagic field?

1) Invoke Magic (a rather broken spell).
2) Again, not entirely aware of where it's from, I'm afraid.
3) Lots. It's what Still Spell, Silent Spell, And Eschew Materials are for... when combined with the broken Invoke Magic.

Do note that most of these Dragon-As-ATM scenarios have the wizard using Win Button spells like Shivering Touch (3d6 dex damage will take down 70-80% of opponents; especially if Maximized, Empowered, or both - and it's low enough level that a Wiz-20 can do that), Celerity (immediate action standard action - with Foresight, it's an "I go first, despite your +30 dex mod, Improved Initiative, and Epic Improved Initiative" spell; it's also an "I go twice" spell; combined further with Time Stop, and it's an "I win" spell) or Invoke Magic (a "neener neener, I can cast spells but you can't" spell when combined with Antimagic Field).

The *one*core-only scenario painted thus far with the Wizard-20 winning relies on Readied actions in a Time Stop (fairly cheesy, in and of itself, but Core) - and is stopped fairly effectively by a simple Ring of Evasion on the dragon's claw (Emporer Tippy(?) was getting all his Delayed Blast Fireballs out of scrolls - which would have a save DC of about 22, vs. the Dragon's +19 reflex save for the targetted CR 20 Black Wyrm in question), and can't readily handle a Dragon who casts AMF afterwards. It also relied on a particular ruling of interaction between Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball - that is, that you can time it so that the DBF's go off after the Time Stop but before the dragon can go, when the spell expresses it as "rounds" not "initiative count" or anything of that nature.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm... remember kids, no initiates of mystra.

Otherwise, bad things happen.