Results 1 to 30 of 44
-
2015-06-17, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- Missouri
- Gender
How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
I've got a homebrew Dragonborn race (think 4e dragonborn, where they are an actually species, rather than the 3.5 template) and each individual can have one or more Draconic Heritages. Each heritage mimics a Dragon's racial features and one of them gives the DR/magic of a true dragon. It scales DR 5 for every 5 levels. For a feat they can change it from DR/magic, which is pretty much useless after 3rd level, to DR/-.
I'm wondering if it's too strong an option or not to have DR/20/- at level 20. If so, should I change the feat to be DR/adamantine?
Edit: I forgot to tag the thread as being for Pathfinder.
Edit#2: I forgot that I changed Adamantine armor to grant DR/- at 5/10/15 for L/M/H armor. I just felt that the DR granted by the rules didn't justify the price tag of the material.Last edited by Asteron; 2015-06-18 at 11:42 AM.
Don't be a monk! Monks are not cool! -The Doctor (The Bells of St. Johns)
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
-
2015-06-17, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Nigh useless. The best way to do damage (especially at that level) is a small handful of massive attacks, while DR is best against a massive amount of small attacks. Anything that's actually a threat will blow past it, anything where that reduces most of their damage wasn't much of a htreat in the first place.
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
-
2015-06-17, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
I wouldn't call it useless. It's not as impressive as it initially looks, but it's still a pretty good ability. Looking at the upper-end monsters, it would be useful against the ones that make multiple attacks - Dragons, Pit Fiend, etc. Not like it would prevent 100% of damage, but we're looking at a significant reduction.
-
2015-06-17, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- San Jose, California
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Definitely not useless.
A Solar (CR 23) deals 3d6+18 (average 29) with his sword. DR 20/- negates two thirds of it.
A Titan (CR 21) deals 4d6+27 (average 41) with his hammer. DR 20/- negates almost half of it.
A Tarrasque (CR 20) deals 4d8+17 (average 35) with his byte. DR 20/- negates more than half of it.
-
2015-06-17, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Arcadia
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
It depends. If your level 20 campaigns resolve around fighting titanic monsters, eldritch abominations, or other Stuff That Be Freaky, it isn't too useful. If it is more about great wars engulfing the world, armies of undead arising to wipe out the living, or endless streams of evil outsiders, it becomes a lot better.
Your average half-orc warrior with 15 strength and a longsword won't be able to harm you, even with a maximum damage crit. You could take on a thousand without taking any damage.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
Join the new Junkyard Wars round and build with Cloaked Dancer and a companion creature!
Interested in judging a build competition on the 3.5 forums but not sure where to begin? Check out the judging handbook!
Extended signature!
-
2015-06-17, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- Missouri
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
That's what I was figuring, but I was balked at 1st glance.
I also thought that it would hardly protect them from the reality-warping spells that will get thrown around at that level.
I think that it is strongest around level 10 when they have DR 10/-. It's before a lot of the nastiest spells come online and will mitigate a high percentage of damage that is dealt at that level.Last edited by Asteron; 2015-06-17 at 02:24 PM.
Don't be a monk! Monks are not cool! -The Doctor (The Bells of St. Johns)
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
-
2015-06-17, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Depends entirely on how the group plays. Fighting mostly monsters without changing them, or low-op NPCs? Significantly powerful. Mid-range optimization it's probably worth the feat. But if you've got monsters being rebuilt and NPCs that are built to high op standard, DR20/- is nothing.
Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.
-
2015-06-17, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
-
2015-06-17, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
-
2015-06-17, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
A level 20 Half-ork fighter:
+13 str, +6 damage from weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, weapon mastery, +5 for weapon enchantment
Greataxe: 1d12+30
You could add crit to the average calculation of damage, and that heavy/massive enchant that gives another +5 damage, but I would say, that DR 20/- is pretty much
-
2015-06-17, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
No one defensive feature is or should be the be-all and end-all. This DR let's you ignore certain things enemies throw at you. You won't budge for some low-level summons (or minions) what are often a part of high level fights because it's just not realistic having a Pit Fiend march in and do ALL the combat. You can ignore much "environmental" damage (rocks fall, everyone's dead, the dragon lives) and combined with a good array of elemental defenses it is a first line of defense, no questions asked.
You get crushed by spells, but pretty much anything high level does. So it's not an argument to entirely stop investing in non-magical defenses.
-
2015-06-17, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
-
2015-06-17, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
Spoiler: Current Characters
-
2015-06-17, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
-
2015-06-17, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
-
2015-06-17, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
-
2015-06-18, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
At least in 3.5, the SRD doesn't directly address environmental sources:
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. ... The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
-
2015-06-18, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Level 4 2-handed fighter: +1 greatsword with 20 strength, +2 Str item and Power Attack. +9 to hit, 2d6+15 (22 ave). DR 6 takes about a quarter of the damage.
Level 4 Two-weapon rogue: +1 shortswords, Finesse, 20 Dex, +2 item: 2 attacks at +8 to hit, 3d6 (10.5 ave). DR 6 takes over half the damage.
Its pretty good. Roughly lets you shrug off a third of the weapon damage coming your way. And spells aren't that scary, yet.
-
2015-06-18, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
-
2015-06-18, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Few problems with this; mainly it massively slow downs combat (even with a calculator, your adding a new step every time you take damage). Also at low damage thresholds, you get stupid rounding errors. Till you hit 5 damage mark (easy to miss at low level combat), you get nothing.
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
-
2015-06-18, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Yes
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Used in combination with say, the FB frenzy ability, it's fantastic.
Unless you have some purpose for it beyond reducing damage, I don't think it's going to be worth its weight. Against many smaller enemies you'll be a badass, but against single enemies it's going to be less effective. Anything with appropriately powered magic will tear through your DR like it was paper.[PF] HP Calculator - Fractional HP, now without math!
[PF] Initiator NPC Templates - Quickly applied maneuvers for DMs.
[PF] Initiator Balance Rule - A lightweight fix to balance casting and martial classes.
-
2015-06-18, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
DR 20 is reasonably good. People underestimate it just because serious attacks overwhelm it significantly, but even then it's still useful. It's not your primary line of defense, and it shouldn't be, but it helps.
So, really, the right question is not whether it's strong, but whether it's worth it. If you had to sacrifice a high level class feature for it, it's probably not worth it. If it's coming from a single feat (or racial feature, yay humans!), it's probably worth it.
As said before, against easy enemies it'll be very helpful. Someone releases the krakken on you? You'll take like 15 damage per hit, tops. Against enemies within the norm of most worlds (people rarely get past level 6 or 7, mooks usually cap at 4 or 5 in npc classes) you'll be immortal. Against titans, of course, it's not as helpful, but hey, when that hekatonkheires hits 3 of his 4 attacks of 6d6+37, or hits you with a greater vital for 24d6+37, you'll still be shaving off 17% to 34% of the incoming damage. I'd say that's worth a feat.
-
2015-06-18, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Quoth MesiDoomstalker:
The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
-
2015-06-18, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
If you get hit fives times, it's 100 damage you didn't take. That's quite a lot. A defense doesn't have to make you immune to an attack method to be useful, and if people are power attacking they should be missing your AC more often.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
-
2015-06-18, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
-
2015-06-18, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Sometimes geometric, but anything more complicated tends to be tabularized and obfuscated as too complicated.
Notably, wizards do scale at least polynomially, but they don't do it by any distinct number; it's in the power of their spells and the jumps between spell levels.
This could be done with feats and even with special abilities of skills, if the designers wished. That would be a good step, though not sufficient by itself.
-
2015-06-18, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Oh hey, missed the PF tag. That makes this even less useful, considering that PF gives several ways to make DR not that useful through feats like Pummeling Style (and its big brother, Pummeling Charge), Clustered Shot, and Vital Strike.
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
-
2015-06-18, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2015
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
I want to say that, compared to the other PF classes, it's pretty heavy. While of course there are spells and everything else that makes a martial's life Hell, those would probably cut through you, DR or not. In that case, we have to look at things that a martial could normally face, and as some of those in here already pointed out, it negates a *heavy* amount of damage. A CR20 creature on average probably deals, what, 120 damage? 90?(According to the PF Monster Creation). Let's say you have ~180HP; d10 class, Con mod of +3, going for average, here. That's 2 hits on average, which gives you an effective boost of 40HP.
Lesser creatures are going to have an even harder time piercing through, with a CR19 creature, with a low attack of 82 damage, giving you sixty effective HP. And those numbers just keep going up for how many hits it takes. Going up against something like a Solar gives you effective HP probably equal to double, even triple your normal HP.
And that's just a race and (apparently?) a feat. Not even a class feature. Compared to everyone else, it's... pretty strong. Strong enough to search for reasons not to have that race for any martial, with "that class's DR won't matter" being not much against it.
-
2015-06-18, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- Missouri
- Gender
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
That's a good point, but not an issue in this game. I modified Adamantine armor to give DR 5/10/15 for light/medium/heavy armor. So any martial character can get a significant amount of DR/- if they want to spend the money.
I had forgotten about that until I went through my houserules for a new player. I apologize. It should have been in the OP.Don't be a monk! Monks are not cool! -The Doctor (The Bells of St. Johns)
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
-
2015-06-18, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2015
Re: How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?
Oh! Yeah, well, in that case, it's not too bad, then. They get a little bit more of a profit off of it by level 20, sure, but with DR like that readily available, it's not OP or anything. You just might have to watch out for creatures that deal less damage, or depend on poison/effects through damage.
And the fact that heavy armor users will probably have DR 15 at level 10, potentially level 8.