A morale system that actually works?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Does anybody know if there are any games in which a Morale system is actually fun? Most of the one's i've played with (Primarily homebrew) have just felt....meh, and either needlessly complicated or neelessly simple. Does anybody know of any good ones? The one that I do know about is 2nd edition D&D, though I've never played it, and the fact that it was removed doesn't give me confidence. Its a shame because in real life combat morale is such an impartial strategic decision, and it is a shame to remove it.

Edit: A little more detail, in real life combat, particularly the middle ages, so much of your strategy was dependent upon Morale, from the fact that the Celts painted themselves Blue while naked to the Mongolian use of tortured enemies. I mean in OOTS we have a great example of a battle lost primarily based upon morale, AKA Azure City. But one great example of real life morale is the Heavy Calvarly Charge, when 600 knights charge ten thousand infantry (like the NOrmans in sicily) technically they should be overwhelmed, but no human being in their right mind is going to see 600 dudes in armor charging down a hill at you with such force that the ground is literally shaking, and literally smashing through the front line, running away screaming is a perfectly understandable reaction, even though doing so actually makes you more likely to be killed from a rational perspective.

[goto124]

I read that alignment works only when you want things simple black-and-white.

There's also a Virtues system...

[The Evil DM]

Does anybody know if there are any games in which a Morale system is actually fun? Most of the one's i've played with (Primarily homebrew) have just felt....meh, and either needlessly complicated or neelessly simple. Does anybody know of any good ones? The one that I do know about is 2nd edition D&D, though I've never played it, and the fact that it was removed doesn't give me confidence. Its a shame because in real life combat morale is such an importal strategic decision, and it is a shame to remove it.

Are you asking about Morale which is often used to describe a spectrum of confidence to fear in troops in wargames and used to determine whether or not a unit is going to flee.

Or are you asking about Morals which is good and evil?

[CowardlyPaladin]

I read that alignment works only when you want things simple black-and-white.

There's also a Virtues system...

not morality, Morale, AKA "Oh ****, there is a giant army coming towards us, lets run"

[The Evil DM]

What is your need?

Are you a GM and looking for a way to determine whether or not a group of creatures runs from the PCs?

If so, first edition dungeon master's guide for D&D actually had a fairly simple but workable method using 2d10 and a modifier list for things such as leadership levels, discipline, presence of magic on either side and so on. It has long since been left out of most D&D materials.

If you are looking at more of a wargaming bent then I would say the ideal I have encountered is actually Advanced Squad Leader. That game is cryptic and simulation style rules heavy. They have eliminated damage in a WWII squad level combat under the assumption that most reduction of a units combat capabilities are based not only on reduction of manpower, but reduction of will to fight. The squad sees their buddy shredded by HMG fire and the whole unit cowers.

If you can give me some details on what you want to use it for I can help suggest something.

[SowZ]

I just ballpark it based on the situation, the people involved, etc. and then top it off with a will roll. It works for me. I don't make PCs run from anything unless it is a supernatural fear effect. I let them choose how to play their characters when facing desperate odds.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I more want a nice system mostly for NPCs to indicate how they will react for different situations and what could be accounted for it. A guy who is utterly unafraid of death might panic and run from giant spiders. And sure, that can be reflected by just roleplaying, but If I can find a way to implement it mechanically, I could make this a part of the strategy as much as anything else.


Like to give an example, if you guys have ever seen the fantastic Akira Kuwosawa film "Yojimbo" there is a scene early on where the two main gangs are fighting in the street and...they are comically pathetic. Every time one of them moves forwth three feet the other retreat two, and the system retreats. But later in the movie, Gang A is able to slaughter Gang B with relatively few losses because over the course of the movie they had gotten so angry and worked up that they were willing to just ignore their fear and charge, and even though Gang B had roughly equal numbers and could fight them, they broke and were slaughtered. I want a system for small scale fighting that can take these things into account.

[Sith_Happens]

First off, what game system is this for?

[Morty]

2nd edition new World of Darkness puts a lot of emphasis on morale during combat situations, making it clear most people won't fight to the death or serious injury. Of course, this is not a system for large-scale battles, so yeah, it would help if you specified what exactly you're looking for.

[Mr. Mask]

Adding to the mix, Twilight 2013 has some interesting morale rules. It even includes aspects like shooting blindly (hitting basically nothing) and screaming, to boost your own morale.

There's also systems like Burning Wheel, where you roll Steel to try and psyche yourself up to kill someone, as well as to decide if you run away.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

In my Pathfinder E6 hack, when the first opponent is dropped, I give PCs a free action intimidate check to demoralise the rest of the opponents. I let the demoralisation stack, so that if they're demoralised more than once, they run.

Works well for me, and encourages people not to use Charisma as a dump stat - and it uses mostly existing rules, scaling with monster HD and stats.

[CowardlyPaladin]

2nd edition new World of Darkness puts a lot of emphasis on morale during combat situations, making it clear most people won't fight to the death or serious injury. Of course, this is not a system for large-scale battles, so yeah, it would help if you specified what exactly you're looking for.

To answer this question (and the question above it) I"m using a D20 system, and I want to design a mechanical system to sort of serve as a "guideline" to character behavior, specifically NPCs, hopefully in such a way that it will mechanically incentives people to design strategies based around using morale like with real life combat.

[Grinner]

I more want a nice system mostly for NPCs to indicate how they will react for different situations and what could be accounted for it. A guy who is utterly unafraid of death might panic and run from giant spiders. And sure, that can be reflected by just roleplaying, but If I can find a way to implement it mechanically, I could make this a part of the strategy as much as anything else.

...It's not exactly what you're looking for, but Unknown Armies has a flight-or-fight mechanic, but it relies on the game's sanity mechanic, though.

Each character has five meters: Isolation, Violence, Unnatural, Self, and Helplessness. Throughout the course of the game, characters have to make "stress checks" when confronted with serious examples of these sort of things.

• If you fail a stress check, you go into flight or fight. You also get a failed notch in that meter, making you more susceptible to things which might trigger a stress check in that meter again. Once you hit five failed notches in a single meter, you pick up an insanity of some kind. Maybe paranoia or a phobia.
• If you pass the check, on the other hand, you retain your senses, and then you get a hardened notch, making you less susceptible to that sort of stimuli in the future. If you get thirty-five of these total or ten in each of two meters, you're considered a sociopath.

In your example, your guy might have ten hardened notches in Violence, so he's completely unfazed by the threat of death. Spiders aren't supposed to be that big though, so he makes an Unnatural stress check and ends up blowing it.

[JAL_1138]

2e morale worked fine, although running away could get an NPC or monster killed in a hurry because of 2e's one situation where an AoO could occur--leaving melee at greater than 1/3 normal speed.

Although even the DMG it was presented in strongly recommended winging it instead based on enemy type and individual circumstances.

It was a roll-under on 2d10 (not as a d100! Just 2d10, to give a minimum of 2 and a slightly more curved result than a d20). There was a short table of modifiers.

It did not apply to PCs, but did apply to henchmen and hirelings, if you used them.

[LibraryOgre]

2e morale worked fine, although running away could get an NPC or monster killed in a hurry because of 2e's one situation where an AoO could occur--leaving melee at greater than 1/3 normal speed.

Although even the DMG it was presented in strongly recommended winging it instead based on enemy type and individual circumstances.

It was a roll-under on 2d10 (not as a d100! Just 2d10, to give a minimum of 2 and a slightly more curved result than a d20). There was a short table of modifiers.

It did not apply to PCs, but did apply to henchmen and hirelings, if you used them.

Which was more or less what I was going to say. Hackmaster has a similar system, and it works fine. 2e's full morale rules also included notes for what was likely to happen at a given failure result, so not all morale failures resulted in "run like mad and hope to survive."

[Segev]

I've occasionally pondered adapting "hp" to be "morale," and expanding what "damages" it. Playing very strongly with the notion of hp as ability to deflect, dodge, and turn potentially lethal blows into glancing ones, and expanding it to include the notion of your willingness and mental ability to put up a fight. Demoralizing an opponent can make them want to disengage and retreat, or make them more vulnerable in a fight (i.e. they have less "hp" as a buffer). When they're out of hp, the nature of the "attack" used to deplete them or to "finish" them could determine if it's a fatal blow, an intimidating boast, or a forced surrender.

In non-combat situations, it could even just represent them giving up and doing what they're told or giving in to temptations (bribes, hunger, seduction, exhaustion, anger), or acting on impulse when a moment's thought would have changed their choices.

[Thrudd]

The system in 1e AD&D works perfectly well for this. You can find the rules reprinted in OSRIC. It is percentile, but can easily be converted to d20 since you don't use less than 5% increments anyway.

morale is checked when the battle reaches certain thresholds, at DM discretion. The baseline is based on the HD of the participants, with modifiers for relative size of the forces, and numbers of allies/enemies killed. So you might check morale once after the first casualties are suffered, and if the battle continues, check again after one side has suffered 50% casualties, or a leader killed, or whatever you think is appropriate. If one side is obviously more intimidating, you could check as battle is engaged. When morale fails, the response is determined by how much the roll failed. It could be a fighting retreat, a route, or surrender.
Obviously morale never applies to PC's, only NPCs and monsters.

It's really an important part of the game, when simulation is a goal. Goes hand in hand with using random encounters and wandering monsters, as well as henchmen and hireling NPCs.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm fond of Burning Wheel's Steel mechanic, which models morale and also physical shock.

Every character has a Steel stat determined at character creation. Things like having been in the military increase your Steel (as well as having given birth!). Also, over the course of the game, Steel can increase as you test it (like any other attribute in Burning Wheel).

You roll Steel whenever you receive a wound, witness something profoundly distressing or shocking (like seeing someone get eviscerated by a horrendous monster), or are exposed to supernatural phenomena that you haven't seen before.

When you roll your Steel, you're trying to get successes (it's a dice pool system) to reduce your Hesitation stat for that roll. (The lower your character's Will is, the higher their Hesitation is.) The remaining amount of Hesitation tells you how long your character is rendered incapable of action.

Example: I have a Steel of 5, so I roll five dice. My Hesitation is also 5. I roll three successes, so I have to Hesitate for two actions.

When you're hesitating, you have to use those actions in various combinations of these four ways...

Stand and Drool: you stand there, overcome by shock, unable to react physically. This is what happened to Boromir during the fight at Amon Hen.

Run Screaming: throw away any weapon that you're holding, and PANIC! You get outta there unless someone tries to chase you.

Fall Prone: you curl up in the fetal position, probably sobbing for mercy or trying to get a grip.

Swoon: you fall unconscious, overcome by the shock.

I like this because it's easy to understand, because "Steel" is a really cool way to call it, and because you get some amount of choice when it comes to your reaction. Also because Run Screaming is an option.

[CowardlyPaladin]

So I had some brainstorming recently, and I had a very rough idea of what could be done. The numbers aren't anywhere near absolute BTW.



So what if everybody had a "morale" pool. A person would have a certain number of points in their pool, based upon their level, their Willpower, and some other factors (like whether they come from a combat background or something. Then when a combat is started, certain circumstances can add or subtract from the pool depending upon the circumstances of the fight can add or subtract the factors. So for example if they are some enemies that are really scary or unfamilar to person, they are chanting or drumming in some scary way (chanting, blue paint, scary drums etc). Or if the PCs are attacking enemies in some circumstance that would make them less inclinded to fight (Say the enemies are in the pouring rain and haven't eaten for a day, they are going to be fall less likely to fight) their pool is lowered. But if they are religious fanatics, or are obsessively loyal to a certain general, then they will have a hug bonus....I think i'm being unclear.



So lets say Emily the Soldier (level 5 warrior) an average Morale, lets say.....15. Anything below 10 is bad morale and anything above 20 is good (the numbers aren't solid, you know what I mean). She has a better than average Will so his morale goes up to 16, and so he is pretty solid. Then when he is in a fight, the enemy summons a demon, and Emily has never seen one before, so she freaks and loses lets say a morale point. But during the fight her friend Joan roles two natural 20s in a row and pulls off an amazing move, which gives all of her allies a morale point. Earlier in the fight her beloved leader gave a pretty awesome speech which gave her another morale point, you get the idea.

IF she goes above a certain level, say just say 20, then the extra morale points can basically serve as action points from Ebberon, giving her a temporary bonus on things that she wants. However she might not want choose to use them in case she falls behind in morale since they provide a nice cushion. When it goes below a certain point....i'm not sure, minuses? Something bad that gets worse as she approches zero. Once it hits zero, they break and run.



Edit: In response to the comments, the BUrning Steen and Unknown armies systems look cool, how much can you plane around them? With AD&D it comes off as a save or die ability.

[Slipperychicken]

For 5e D&D, I've been wondering about the idea of homebrewing morale points.

Morale would probably look a bit like death saving throws. A character would get up to a few points (2-10?), which can be gained or lost based on events and conditions. When a character hits zero, he makes a saving throw to determine whether he keeps fighting with 1 morale point, or breaks. Breaking means the character must choose between flight and surrender. When surrender seems unlikely to work, the character may instead elect to stand frozen in place, unable to act. While fleeing or "surrendering", the character may save at disadvantage each round to return to his senses.

[CowardlyPaladin]

For 5e D&D, I've been wondering about the idea of homebrewing morale points.

Morale would probably look a bit like death saving throws. A character would get up to a few points (2-10?), which can be gained or lost based on events and conditions. When a character hits zero, he makes a saving throw to determine whether he keeps fighting with 1 morale point, or breaks. Breaking means the character must choose between flight and surrender. When surrender seems unlikely to work, the character may instead elect to stand frozen in place, unable to act. While fleeing or "surrendering", the character may save at disadvantage each round to return to his senses.

Oh I like that, I should use part of that.

[Jay R]

My morale system for NPCs is purely practical. When the fight is clearly decided, and is reduced to mopping up, and is no longer exciting or suspenseful, the NPCs run away or surrender.

[Mr Beer]

My morale system for NPCs is purely practical. When the fight is clearly decided, and is reduced to mopping up, and is no longer exciting or suspenseful, the NPCs run away or surrender.

This is exactly how I do it.

Morale is seldom determined by dice rolls in my game, it happens when it's more interesting/less boring to have the enemy break than fight on.

[Jay R]

This is exactly how I do it.

Morale is seldom determined by dice rolls in my game, it happens when it's more interesting/less boring to have the enemy break than fight on.

I do have exceptions. Goblins are natural followers, half-instinctual, and will flee almost immediately when their non-goblins leaders die.

And the party is about to have a major battle with starving gnolls in a forest with no animals, who see the party as their only way to avoid death. Those gnolls won't stop. (But they will fight with minuses on combat skills and on Fortitude.)