Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[LeSwordfish]

Also given the average mutation rate in the imperium, you'd be wiping planets out, family by family, whenever one was born.

[The Glyphstone]

Another complication to consider is how the person learned a piece of knowledge, which is probably a bigger contributor to a death sentence than just knowing something in the first place. If you're Joe Farmer and you happen to know Khorne likes blood, it's not simply knowing Khorne's name that gets you killed, it's that you most likely either learned it from a book (tainted by heretical knowledge) or someone taught it to you (consorting with heretical individuals).

Else you could be the greatest assassin in the history of the galaxy just by walking into hearing range of your targets and telling them a piece of Forbidden knowledge. Now they're going to be executed, and you didn't have to lift a finger. Sure, you will be killed if caught, but that's already part of being an assassin.

[Delta]

This one's easy. You kill all the mutants and anyone that's met one. Nobody in the Imperium is allowed to know that mutants exist (you know, except the few who are); you can't expect knowledge of something as common as mutants to stay hidden, but you can do your best to squash that knowledge using whatever means necessary. Usually those means are painful and lethal (no-one said the Imperium was a nice place to live).

Um, so you're saying everyone who ever heard about mutants being a thing is executed in the Imperium?

I'm sorry, I don't even know if you're just trying to play Advocatus Diaboli here, but this is getting a bit ridiculous, in my opinion, I know 40K lore is a confusing mess of contradictions, and still your opinions are refuted by pretty much all of it. People do know mutants are a thing, people do know that daemons are a thing, people do know the Inquisition is a thing, you most definitely to not need a Forbidden Lore skill for that, that is undeniably canon, whether you look into novels or rulebooks of any kind.

Yes, not everyone knows. Tribal warriors on Feral Worlds might not (or some might, depending of their contact with the Empire), some gangers on the lowest level of a Hive world might not. But in general, most average people in the Imperium will have heard that there is such a thing as the Inquisition and that they have authority second to only that of the Emperor himself. That's how the world is described both in the Dark Heresy books as it is in the novels where the Inquisition plays a big role, so shouldn't we consider that canon? Especially since it has already been pointed out that the Inqusition simply couldn't operate if most people had never heard of them. You can't quickly phone Terra to check out whether that guy in front of you who claims to be an "Inquisitor" really has authority or not.

[comicshorse]

Especially since it has already been pointed out that the Inqusition simply couldn't operate if most people had never heard of them. You can't quickly phone Terra to check out whether that guy in front of you who claims to be an "Inquisitor" really has authority or not.

Which if the Inquisition do regard their word-of-mouth reputation as vital to their work then the most unspeakable crime in an Inquisitor's book, the one they'd drop everything else to deal with, is somebody claiming to be an Inquisitor who isn't ! Hmm, I think I'm getting a scenario idea.......

[The Glyphstone]

For what little they're worth, the Cain novels do claim 'impersonating an Inquisitor is a capital offense'. But then, half the Imperium's laws are capital offenses.

[JellyPooga]

Um, so you're saying everyone who ever heard about mutants being a thing is executed in the Imperium?

Not quite. For one, as mentioned above, there are stable mutants, like Astropaths, Squats and Ogryn and these are accepted as a necessary evil. Still heresy, by the strictest tenants of the Imperial Creed, but an accepted one. Second, the Inquisition don't have a galactic mind reader; there will be many that know mutants exist, even accept them into their society. That doesn't make those people any less heretical that the Inquisition doesn't know about these people and it is still a crime to have such knowledge and acceptance. It's just overlooked because the Inquisition is a relatively small organisation.

[Delta]

Not quite. For one, as mentioned above, there are stable mutants, like Astropaths, Squats and Ogryn and these are accepted as a necessary evil. Still heresy, by the strictest tenants of the Imperial Creed, but an accepted one. Second, the Inquisition don't have a galactic mind reader; there will be many that know mutants exist, even accept them into their society. That doesn't make those people any less heretical that the Inquisition doesn't know about these people and it is still a crime to have such knowledge and acceptance. It's just overlooked because the Inquisition is a relatively small organisation.

That... has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked, sorry. I feel like we're running in circles now with you moving the goalposts rapidly because you know full well that the canon is rather clear on this matter. If you truly think that knowing the fact "The Inquisition exists" requires, in game terms, the "Forbidden Lore (Inquisition)" skill and that it is a "heinous crime" to possess that knowledge, you are absolutely, 100% wrong, I can't put it in simpler terms than that.

[JellyPooga]

That... has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked, sorry. I feel like we're running in circles now with you moving the goalposts rapidly because you know full well that the canon is rather clear on this matter. If you truly think that knowing the fact "The Inquisition exists" requires, in game terms, the "Forbidden Lore (Inquisition)" skill and that it is a "heinous crime" to possess that knowledge, you are absolutely, 100% wrong, I can't put it in simpler terms than that.

You asked about mutants. I answered. Seems pretty salient to me. If anyone is movinng goalposts, you're moving them for me; my claim is that knowledge of the Inquisition is Forbidden Lore and that there is no Common Lore regarding it. That's a rule (if not lore). It's not a definitive statement that no-one has ever heard of the Inquisition without that skill, but it's a good indicator of how rare and sanctioned any knowledge of them is, or should be, including their existence. That's my claim.

I could go into the details of why novels are a bad example of canon lore, but I doubt I really need to (plus I'm at work, so don't have the time right now; if you would like me to expound on that point, let me know).

[Destro_Yersul]

You asked about mutants. I answered. Seems pretty salient to me. If anyone is movinng goalposts, you're moving them for me; my claim is that knowledge of the Inquisition is Forbidden Lore and that there is no Common Lore regarding it. That's a rule (if not lore). It's not a definitive statement that no-one has ever heard of the Inquisition without that skill, but it's a good indicator of how rare and sanctioned any knowledge of them is, or should be, including their existence. That's my claim.

It's a frankly ludicrous claim, mostly due to the bolded part. If you want to use DH2 to back it up, well how about the section on subtlety?

"...some [Inquisitors] operate openly, trusting in the populace's fear of the Inquisition to smoke out the heretics among them."

Can't fear something you don't know exists. Or how about the last paragraph on the section about the Inquisition?

"the names of some long-dead Inquisitors are still spoken in hushed tones on hundreds of worlds across the Imperium, their pogroms having turned them into figures of legend for generations to come."

Hundreds of worlds doesn't sound like nobody even knowing what they are. Doesn't even sound uncommon. But maybe that's not enough.

How about page 277, where it says any good Imperial citizen should be respectful of the Inquisition? Or the Ordo Hereticus, "known and feared as the Witch Hunters?" How about the part of the Common Lore description that notes this knowledge is meant to go deeper than the subject's existence? How about the Cover-Up and Delicate Interrogation talents, which effect Subtlety, in an effort to keep the Inquisition's presence secret? Why should knowledge of presence matter if the common reaction is going to be 'Inqui-who?' Or what about Influence? What part of "merely invoking the name of the Inquisition is enough to have many loyal citizens falling over backwards to obey" sounds as though nobody knows what the Inquisition is?

There's probably more, and this is all just one source - you didn't want to use novels, after all. Shall I get out my other sourcebooks?

[Delta]

That's my claim.

Then your claim is as absurd as it is wrong, as I said, and that's the last I'll say on the matter, because now we're up to the point of arguing if water is wet in 40K or not.

[Malak'ai]

Then your claim is as absurd as it is wrong, as I said, and that's the last I'll say on the matter, because now we're up to the point of arguing if water is wet in 40K or not.

It isn't... At least on Terra

[Delta]

It isn't... At least on Terra

I just knew the moment I clicked send someone would make a smarky comment

[Yasic]

Hello everyone. New guy here jumping into the discussion with my take on the matter (been DMing 40k games for half a decade now), hope you all don't mind.

I feel that yes, outside of frontier worlds that are mostly cut off from the Imperium and primitive world like death worlds or feudal worlds, just about everyone has at least heard of the Inquisition. They are the settings KGB and while most people will never have met an agent, they know about them and know that if an agent shows up something went very wrong.

I think a big element missing from the discussion is that the Inquisition is not made up solely of Inquisitors. In my view for every Inquisitor they are 10-100 acolytes, a couple hundred tempest scions, and tens of thousands (if not more) of other auxilia supporting them. Not all of them are necessarily considered direct agents of the Inquisition but they are working for the Inquisition and most of them know it.

I would think that most populated worlds would have an office of the Inquisition, similar to an embassy. It would have a few clerks whose duty it is to maintain records, contact the Inquisition as a whole, and meet with the leadership of various organizations on the planet every couple years just to remind them that the Inquisition is here and is watching. They would mostly be token representatives just for the fear factor but they would be there nevertheless.


As far as the idea that knowledge of the inquisition is forbidden, here are a few bits I remember from lore books:

- In Scourge the Heretic by Sandy Mitchell, the Inquisition has a massive building on the hiveworld Scintilla called the Tricorn that is well known by the world. Agents of the Inquisition (Note not inquisitors themselves) would bring prisoners in for interrogation and drive around in ships readily identified as the Inquisition that are identified to civillian aircraft controllers.

- In Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, on a small out-of-the way world the protagonist (a Space Marine from a lesser chapter) got frustrated by a member of the worlds nobility who thought the Astartes were there to serve her. This issue was resolved when one of the protagonist party members, an inquisitor, revelaed who he is causing the noble woman to leave in fear. The Protagonist reflects how even on a world where the people don't actually know much about astartes they still fear and avoid the Inquisition.

- In one of the Ravenor books by Dan Abnett, a world has a massive parade and the Inquisition is one of the attending elements. They literally parade the Inquisition through the massive hive city...

- In Gathering Storm Book 3, Rise of the Primarch, the inquisitor (I forgot her name) travels all over the galaxy and meets many different group ranging from the mighty space marines, to guardsmen, sisters of battle, mechanicus, and so on. She often times announces herself as an Inquisitor and she at no point attempts to kill any of the people who heard her say this information. (at least not for knowing she is an inquisitor... she tries to blame quite a few people for heresy for other reasons though)

[LeSwordfish]

In one of the Ravenor books by Dan Abnett, a world has a massive parade and the Inquisition is one of the attending elements. They literally parade the Inquisition through the massive hive city...

They also parade a group of prisoners of war, including mutants and psykers. But everyone in that crowd is expected to be killed for knowing about mutants, right?

[Lord Torath]

Note to anyone planning on running the Oblivion's Edge adventure: At one point the adventure says that marines in power armor can only survive for about ten minutes in the vacuum of space. I'd recommend ignoring that bit, because the Deathwatch rule book says that power armor can maintain an adequate oxygen supply as long as the unit is powered (p161 under Osmotic Gill).

[LeSwordfish]

Note to anyone planning on running the Oblivion's Edge adventure: At one point the adventure says that marines in power armor can only survive for about ten minutes in the vacuum of space. I'd recommend ignoring that bit, because the Deathwatch rule book says that power armor can maintain an adequate oxygen supply as long as the unit is powered (p161 under Osmotic Gill).

Worth noting there's a lot more to survival in space than oxygen - like temperature, negative pressure, radiation, etc. My instinct is that power armour can probably tank all of those things anyway, but you're not going to survive long in space in a scuba suit and that can maintain an oxygen supply for a while too.

[lightningcat]

Worth noting there's a lot more to survival in space than oxygen - like temperature, negative pressure, radiation, etc. My instinct is that power armour can probably tank all of those things anyway, but you're not going to survive long in space in a scuba suit and that can maintain an oxygen supply for a while too.

If I remember correctly, a normal person can survive in space for about a minute without any protections, before being totally fubar. I would think an unarmored space marine would have 10 minutes, and a fully armored one is better off then a person wearing a modern space suit.

Yes this totally ruins all those movies where the bad guy dies instantly when ejected into space, but real science is cool too.

[Random Sanity]

If I remember correctly, a normal person can survive in space for about a minute without any protections, before being totally fubar. I would think an unarmored space marine would have 10 minutes, and a fully armored one is better off then a person wearing a modern space suit.

Yes this totally ruins all those movies where the bad guy dies instantly when ejected into space, but real science is cool too.

Depending on how vile the villain is, that may actually IMPROVE some of those movies. Instant death is often much too merciful.

It should be noted also that a space marine in sealed armor can willingly go into suspended animation (via the sus-an membrane and one or two other implants I forget the name of) and hibernate pretty much indefinitely in any environment the armor can withstand.

[Wraith]

I think it's a specific disconnect between game mechanics and lore, in order to prevent players from abusing their "invulnerability".

In the lore, Astartes Power Armour is radiation shielded and vacuum sealed - they can literally spend days space-walking, and often do while fighting so there is probably some amount of redundancy available in order to account for battle damage in the likes.

Presumably, the game mechanics don't want to make it THAT easy on you, and thus preserving some of the mystique and threat of fighting in space.

[Lord Torath]

I think it's more likely the mission writer wanted to add an additional challenge, and 'forgot' that Power Armor allows unlimited exposure to vacuum. One of the major reasons power armor has magnetic soles is so marines can operate on the exteriors of spacecraft if needed.

[Delta]

Yeah, seeing how far the impression of the abilities of Space Marines tends to flip flop from writer to writer, from "really big, really tough human" up to "basically demigods who can shrug off small arms fire with their naked skin and laugh in the face of anything up to nuclear weapons when armored", that seems as good an explanation as any.

[Incorrect]

Yeah, remember the time Guilliman was too busy to bring a helmet into the vacuum of space? The main problem was that he was unable to speak, and light discomfort. But of cause, thats a primarch.

[Delta]

Yeah, primarchs are another matter entirely. I just read the first Horus Heresy novels, those guys are pretty ridiculous even by Space Marine standards.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, remember the time Guilliman was too busy to bring a helmet into the vacuum of space? The main problem was that he was unable to speak, and light discomfort. But of cause, thats a primarch.

"I'm BatmanGuilliman, and I can breathe in space."

[Delta]

Horus would've just breathed out until the vacuum was filled with air.

[Lord Torath]

How does fear affect a horde? Say my fear(1)-causing marine charges a horde of rebel guardsmen. They take a fear (willpower) test will no modifier, but fail the test. Do I roll on the Shock table p277 and apply the results to the entire horde? Do I reduce the magnitude of the horde by, say, one for each degree of failure? Make the horde take a Break test with a penalty based on the marine's Fear level, or based on the horde's degree of failure? Break the horde immediately? I couldn't see anything in the rulebook.

[LeSwordfish]

https://community.fantasyflightgames...rdes-and-fear/ They get a bonus equal to half their magnitude.

[Witty Username]

How does the adeptas mechanicas recruit members normally?
What traits do they look for in people?
I ask because I have an idea brewing for a feral world tech-priest in dark heresy 2nd ed (there are no rules against it) and I'm pondering possible justifications. So far I am thinking that this is a dude that is from a feral world in the same system as a forge world that isn't worth a proper colony but is occasionally used for things like wilderness survival exercises and he was picked up because he had taught himself how to forge iron.

[Destro_Yersul]

I think there's a canonical forgeworld somewhere that's basically Mad Max. The Mechanicus is pretty good about picking up anyone who shows any sort of aptitude for machines and seeing how it goes; if it doesn't work out, there's always a need for more servitors.

[Witty Username]

thanks

that does get into another topic, are there worlds that fall into multiple categories, like say a shrine world that has a large monument to a saint and alot of imperial presence in that area but on other continents feudal or feral world sections? Or say a world that is hard to tell whether it is a hive world or forge world?