Seeker of the Song vs. Sublime Chord

[Flawless]

I player in my DnD party is currently playing a bard and has asked me if I could recommend a PrC. Now I was thinking about those two and I don't know which one is better. SoS seems powerful and interesting. Something a little different whereas SuC looks like a wizard in disguise to me. So which one is actually better?

The bard I'm talking about is currently level 3, so she can get into either PrC.

[Talya]

SuC looks like a wizard in disguise to me. So which one is actually better?

You rather answered your own question here.

it's more of a sorceror in disguise than wizard, but that's absolutely correct. And you know the issues with caster balance, right?

Sublime Chord is a beautiful PrC, in my mind. Very bardic, while having nearly the arcane power of a sorceror.

[Isomenes]

The bard I'm talking about is currently level 3, so she can get into either PrC.

I wish I had thought about PrCs at 3rd level. Then I'd have put in the ranks where needed so's I didn't have to spend all 11 points on Listen to get into SuC. :)

[Amiria]

Imo, the SoS is more bardic than the SuC. Sure, no spellcasting progression anymore but lots of flavorful bardic music abilities (some of them are actually useful).

Try to check out the Lyric Thaumaturge in Complete Mage. It is a nice Bard PrC with enhanced spellcasting and some extra sonic damage power. And you can get into it after your 6th level, not after your 10th like with SoS and SuC.

There are also two good bardic feats in CM. One is a prerequisite for Lyric Thaumaturge and the other is a bonus feat for the PrC.

[Bears With Lasers]

Sublime Chord sadly beats the pants off of the Seeker, who gets some subpar blasting. Hymn of Spelldeath and Aria of Everywhere are gems, and you can make a solid CHA-based build since you don't need that much bard to get into Seeker, but overall SotS is rather lackluster.

[Flawless]

So it's the caster again? Spells FTW!

[ocato]

As I understand it, a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is all but a L20 Bard/Sorcerer Gestalt who makes up for passing on evocation crap spells (you were gonna skip em anyway, right?) with a song that can deal a good hunk of damage. What is it, Perform check(1d20+perform ranks+mods+cha)+ Sublime Chord level damage? That's going to be like 60 damage if you have good gear and a smart feat or two. Also, like a timestop song? I didn't even know bards could play Freebird.

Honestly, I don't have any books since I moved (I left my share of the library with the old group since they didn't do me any good here) but it seems like this is a bit much. If I were the DM, I'd consider sitting down with the Bard player and going through the Sorcerer/Wizard Spell list and making a list of spells that are sort of bardish. Obviously not like "no spells that don't involve sound" or something like that. Probably end up making the list heavy in Enchantments, Illusions, and Buffs. You know, the meat and potatos of Bard magic. Granted some other stuff can go in so that you aren't killing the guy or making it stupid to take the PrC. Give him the ability to customize the character still, but he probably shouldn't be rivaling a real Sorcerer. You can make up for this 'nerf' by allowing them to access all levels of Sorcerer/Wizard spells instead of just 4-9, and maybe even let them get the new heals from the Cleric list. Not like CoDzilla spells, just let them take the Cure X line a little further, not even necessarily to the end. It'll have them taking some Cure spells over the gruesome wizard spells. I mean, the Party wizard doesn't want to find himself feeling like his toes are getting stepped on. You can keep it so they get 9th level spells, infact that's my favorite part (except the Song of Cosmic Fire, I have dreams about that and they involve the song "Master Exploder".) and sort of fill in their spells known/per day by level so that it eventually is close to, or at Sorcerer levels.

In my opinion, your goal here is going to be making this class an act of upgrading your Bard to a better caster, not turning him into a Sorcerer. I mean, don't make him go "why'd I get those feats to buff my songs when now I just cast *insert save or die spell* or play song of cosmic fire. Buff? Forget that stuff, I'll just kill the enemies myself and let the rest of the party feel stupid and marginally useless!

[GoufCustom]

Slightly hijacking the thread...

In the future, I'd like to play a very Dwarven fighter/bard, and I was wondering if there are any good martial Bard PrCs?

[Amiria]

I heard that the War Chanter from CW is quite good for some builds.

But if you want to have some state-of-the-art stuff, I advise simply multiclassing bard with either Crusader or Warblade from Tome of Battle with the Song of the White Raven feat from the same book.

[Jewish_Joke]

Spoiler

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As I understand it, a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is all but a L20 Bard/Sorcerer Gestalt who makes up for passing on evocation crap spells (you were gonna skip em anyway, right?) with a song that can deal a good hunk of damage. What is it, Perform check(1d20+perform ranks+mods+cha)+ Sublime Chord level damage? That's going to be like 60 damage if you have good gear and a smart feat or two. Also, like a timestop song? I didn't even know bards could play Freebird.

Honestly, I don't have any books since I moved (I left my share of the library with the old group since they didn't do me any good here) but it seems like this is a bit much. If I were the DM, I'd consider sitting down with the Bard player and going through the Sorcerer/Wizard Spell list and making a list of spells that are sort of bardish. Obviously not like "no spells that don't involve sound" or something like that. Probably end up making the list heavy in Enchantments, Illusions, and Buffs. You know, the meat and potatos of Bard magic. Granted some other stuff can go in so that you aren't killing the guy or making it stupid to take the PrC. Give him the ability to customize the character still, but he probably shouldn't be rivaling a real Sorcerer. You can make up for this 'nerf' by allowing them to access all levels of Sorcerer/Wizard spells instead of just 4-9, and maybe even let them get the new heals from the Cleric list. Not like CoDzilla spells, just let them take the Cure X line a little further, not even necessarily to the end. It'll have them taking some Cure spells over the gruesome wizard spells. I mean, the Party wizard doesn't want to find himself feeling like his toes are getting stepped on. You can keep it so they get 9th level spells, infact that's my favorite part (except the Song of Cosmic Fire, I have dreams about that and they involve the song "Master Exploder".) and sort of fill in their spells known/per day by level so that it eventually is close to, or at Sorcerer levels.

In my opinion, your goal here is going to be making this class an act of upgrading your Bard to a better caster, not turning him into a Sorcerer. I mean, don't make him go "why'd I get those feats to buff my songs when now I just cast *insert save or die spell* or play song of cosmic fire. Buff? Forget that stuff, I'll just kill the enemies myself and let the rest of the party feel stupid and marginally useless!

You hit this one on the head. Although I am not overly fond of the class itself, I noticed the Beguiler has a fine list of 7th-9th level spells suitable for a Sublime Chord. Then again, many of the 4th-6th spells on the beguiler list overlap with that of the bard, but it makes a good guideline.

[BardicDuelist]

Really, I think they are both good, just depends on what you want to do. While the damage of SoS songs is less than many spells that one could have, they do ignore spell resistance, which is rather useful.

If he is an elf, DO NOT inform him that he can take Spell Singer from Races of Faerun and stack BOTH prestige classes for five levels.

[ocato]

For a martial bard, I really like to mix magic with mayhem. Remember the Laws of the Battle Bard.
1. Do not forsake buffs, they affect you as well.
2. Do not forsake CC, a laughing enemy is easier to slay than a fighting one.

There are more Laws of the Battle Bard.
Feats I like for Battle Bards
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) Use a Bardic Music to add Cha to attack with slashing weapon
Power Attack (PHB) Just hear me out...
Song of the Heart (Ebberon) +1 to ALL bardic variables. Inspire Courage, Fascinate/Suggestion DCs, like, everything.
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) Songs last 10 rounds after being sung
Arcane Strike (uh... Complete Arcane? I don't remember) This one is foggy in my head, but you pretty much sacrifice a spell and add X to your next attack roll and Xd4 to your next damage roll where X was the spell's level.
Extra Music (complete Adventurer) 4 more songs per day

Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? Get the Crystal Echoblade
Crystal Echoblade
Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: -
Weight: 4 lb.

A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music
Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.
You can buff it to more than a +1, but since it's a longsword, it works with Snowflake Wardance.

For Poops and giggles, let's say you're a L12 Human Bard. You have the following feats
1. Snowflake Wardance (I can't remember if there are prereqs, if so, switch this with #9)
1. Power attack
3. Song of the Heart
6. Lingering Song
9. Extra Music
12. Arcane Strike

Str 20 and Cha 20 (not hard for a strength and Charisma focused Bard, remember that this is a slasher, not a skill monkey, so instead of CHA, DEX, then INT, it's more CHA, STR, CON)

Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage) on your Inspire Courage makes it a +4 to attack and damage (2 base +1 inspirational boost +1 SotH)
Haste (+1 bonus to attacks, 1 extra attack at your highest BaB)
Use Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike one of your L4 spells. This is assuming a +1 Echoblade, a +2 or 3 wouldn't be hard to get.

Full Attack
BaB +9/+4 so

Attack 1. 9+5(str)+5(cha)+4(Insp.Cour)+1(Haste)+4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)= +29. Power Attack 9 of that off, so you're swinging with +20.
Two hands on that sword mister!
Damage 1. 1d8+ 18(power attack)+4 (insp cour)+4d4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword) +6(sonic from sword)= Average at about ~41ish?
Haste! Attack again at that bonus sucka! (assuming you really want to put the hurt on them and use up your other 4th level spell, you could save some trouble and downgrade to a 2nd level spell for subsequent attacks, assuming that Arcane Strike doesn't last throughout a full attack, might be wrong)
Attack 3. 4+5(STR)+5(CHA)+4(Insp. Cour)+1(haste)+2(weaker Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)=+22.
Power Attack 4 of that off, you're swinging at a +18.
Damage 1d8+ 8(power attack)+4(insp cour) +2d4 (Arcane strike)+1(sword)+6(sonic from sword)= ~27.

So that's like, I dunno, if you do arcane strike 4th level spell on both initials... that's about 100 damage if they all hit. Rough estimate. This is a "let me pull out the biggest bard slap I can" average damage will be a bit lower. At L15 grab Lyric Spell if you are having problems with losing spells, you can give up your Music chances for more spells (1+spell level songs gets a spell back) so you can save an ace up your sleeve.

EDIT: Forgot the effects of the sword! Remember, you can buff that so it's like a +5 Flaming or somesuch. Also, I wrote that whole damn thing, and now I read back and realize you asked for a PrC for a Fighter/Bard... Oops?

[ocato]

Actually, throw in Melodic Spell (Complete Arcane I think, maybe complete mage, it lets you cast spells while singing, but in this case more importantly, lets you use your perform in place of a concentration check) and then go for Sublime Chord at around L10 and you could be the start of CodoBzilla

[Flawless]

Thanks for the advice so far, especially ocato, you made some interesting points. Sublime Chords seems now really to be top-notch.

[ocato]

Another couple of interesting choices for feats if you want to be a less fight and more support bard

Haunting Melody (Ebberon) 30ft radius, Save of 10+half your level+CHA, makes enemies shaken (-2 to attacks, skill checks, ability scores, maybe damage I think, and most importantly Saving Throws)

Sacred Vow (BoED) +2 Perfection bonus to Diplomacy (not great, but it is a prereq for...)
Vow of Nonviolence (BoED) This feat requires you to abstain from violence. If you're a bard, this isn't terribly hard (this isn't a Sublime Chord feat, I wouldn't suggest) and adds +4 to your spell's saves. You lose your violent spells (it doesn't affect damaging spells and I think damage makes you lose the feat forever) but if they've been shaken by Haunting Melody, your Crowd Control spells now effectively have +6. Many will disagree with the BoED feats, and I can understand that. But Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) give you +2 to some of your spells. The Vows give +4, and some diplomabard bonuses (if you're a lover, not a fighter.) Like I said, these are for Bards that would rather buff friends and disable enemies than do damage (I showed how you could try damage already).

Almost any/every bard build is highly in need of a very unpopular feat that I am never without. Versatile Performer. You get extra perform skills at your highest rank based on your int mod. Let me clarify. If you have 9 Ranks in Perform (Sing) and an int of 16 (+3), you pick 3 new Performs and each acts as if they had the 9 ranks. If you put more ranks in Sing, your Versatile Performer skills will match it. Also, combining performances, like singing and playing your lute, gives a +2 to the check (Nondescript bonus, stacks all around). Now, many DMs rule that so long as they aren't the same type (competance, etc), different bonuses to different kinds of performances stack. Some rule that different kinds of perform bonuses stack even if they're the same type. So your Choaker of Eloquence giving +10 competance to Singing (and bluff and diplomacy) would stack with your +2 Circumstance bonus from that masterwork lute you threw down a hundred yellow coins for. (You could make/buy a +Perform competance item for the bonus^2 x100g, so a +20 item would be 40,000GP). This information is handy if you're taking Sublime Chord and want that sweet Song of Cosmic Fire to deal damage of ... cosmic proportions. But Versatile Performer isn't about that. It's about that inevitable day when your lute is gone, your hands are tied, or you are gagged, tied down, or whatever combination thereof, where you need to use bardic music but your favorite method of performing, be it singing, dancing, or an instrument, has been removed. Now. Now you can do them all. I try to fit this feat into every bard build, but it often has to get pushed off or back when you're trying to make a very specific build. Honestly, this feat is worth getting. Fit it in, somewhere. Take a flaw, ask to delay a first level feat until L2 (it has a perform rank Prereq of 5), just try to sneak it in. I love it.

Also, can't go wrong with Subsonics for a heavy hider/buffer/Fascinater. A melee or sublime chord style bard might not really feel the need for this feat, but it can do miracles for he who wishes to remain spoony.

Subsonics feat: Prereq Perform 10 ranks, bardic music; Benefit: You can produce music or poetics so subtly that opponents do not notice it, yet your allies still fain all the usual benefits from your bardic music. Similarly, you can affect opponents within range with your music, but unless they can see you performing or have some other means of discovering it, they cannot determine the source of the effect.

So, in a nutshell, cast invisibility on yourself and sing away, being the phantom buffer. Granted, the cantrip message accomplishes this just as well. Subsonics truly shines when used to Fascinate without being in sight of your target, which is necessary for Fascinate unless you have this feat. It really makes Fascinate far more user-friendly, especially since you follow that up with the good old Suggestion and life is good.

[PinkysBrain]

The thing about seeker of the song is that he is only using his swift actions most of the time for his class abilities, which means he has plenty of time left for other things as well. Finding effective other things to do is a bit of a problem because you are stuck with poor combat abilities and poor spellcasting, but it's not impossible. You could for instance just get a ring of telekinesis and some big weapons and use your standard action to throw them around each round.