Players using dice to determine roleplay actions

[Geddy2112]

Hello Playground,

Recently my players have taken to a strange trend. They are starting to roll dice(normally a will save) to determine what their character would do. This could be anything to seeing if they find a joke funny, to if they care about the NPC the rest of the party is interacting with. Recently, this kind of thing has spread into combat actions, as a new character rolled a will save to "get involved" when the rest of the party was attacked by a water elemental instead of just ignoring them.

Is this normal? Would/do you allow this at your table? My thoughts are that you should be in control of your character's choices and you should not need to make rolls to determine your own volition.

[Maglubiyet]

Do you rely heavily on dice yourself...are they consciously or unconsciously imitating you?

[Comet]

We have one player that likes to do this. Sometimes it's fun to distance yourself from your character and let the sheet do the talking (there are entire games that are built on this premise) and sometimes it's just fun to gamble and surprise yourself.

[Ogh_the_Second]

What I've seen regularly is players imposing Will saves on themselves to overcome "self-inflicted impediments".

With "self-inflicted impediments" I mean any fears, feelings of disgust, cultural inclinations, or similar emotions that a player may have included when designing his character. A simple example would be if a PC is professed to have a fear of heights and is required to make Climb checks. In this way, the phobia becomes part of the game play, without having to be strictly enforced by the DM.

In such cases, it seems fine. However, rolling to determine whether you care about anything seems like overdoing it to me, and runs the risk of closing adventure options for no good reason.

[dream]

Hello Playground,

Recently my players have taken to a strange trend. They are starting to roll dice(normally a will save) to determine what their character would do. This could be anything to seeing if they find a joke funny, to if they care about the NPC the rest of the party is interacting with. Recently, this kind of thing has spread into combat actions, as a new character rolled a will save to "get involved" when the rest of the party was attacked by a water elemental instead of just ignoring them.

Is this normal? Would/do you allow this at your table? My thoughts are that you should be in control of your character's choices and you should not need to make rolls to determine your own volition.

"Normal" compared to how people have played TTRPGs in the past? No. I establish up front with players that I expect roleplaying & then I make sure they understand what roleplaying is. There's a reason many TTRPGs have a section at the beginning titled "What is Roleplaying?"

Do the players have fleshed-out PCs? By that I mean do they write-out a persona or at least pick an alignment? What system are you playing? Just explain to them what roleplaying is & how to do it. If that fails, take their dice

[Segev]

It is not improper to ask them, "What are you making a will save against? Is your character naturally so callous and indifferent that he by default does not care that his friends are being attacked?"

[goto124]

Something something Sasuke

[NichG]

I'd say its an indicator that the player is bored or is having trouble empathizing with or getting a handle on their character in the situation. Worst case, it can also be a form of attention-seeking behavior - they can do something that might piss people off, but say 'the dice made me do it!'

[The Evil DM]

The following is anecdotal and may not represent a universal trend, but almost every (approx. 95%) of the role players I have ever played with, where I have also had the opportunity to see the individual progress from beginner to seasoned role player has gone through a stage where they use some form of randomization - dice or otherwise - to determine courses of actions and responses to scenarios put before them.

Most go through that stage and move on. I tend to ignore it unless it becomes a problem (defined below). I as DM don't care what their decision process is.

Most of our games have a before and after period as players arrive and players leave during which I might talk to a group of players about decision making.

Where I see problems in random decision making is when the players are defining a set of arbitrary and/or ridiculous options that have little bearing to the narrative.

An extreme problem example

DM - You enter the village as the sun is reaching the horizon. In the evening dusk you can see lights in the nearby tavern as many villagers are gathering for evening merriment.
Player - *rolls a die* - I have sex with a goat.
DM - There are no goats nearby
Player - *rolls a die* - ok I rob a homeless man.

In this extreme case I would have a conversation with the player about engaging with the narrative.

As a not so problematic example

DM - the cavern descends into the mountain opening into a chamber with three alternate exits. The chamber is about 100 feet in. The alternate exits extend forward, to the left and to the right. The chamber itself is rather nondescript but does have some moisture on the floor. The left exit slopes downward, as does the right. The forward exist slopes upward.
Player - *rolls a die* - to group - I say we go left.

-edit-

NichG ninja-posted me but I concur with his statement boredom and lack of engagement tends towards the problem type of randomized decision making. But sometimes when faced with a set of equally valid choices random is a perfectly acceptable method of making a decision.

[Segev]

I had a (mad) priest who thought his god was a(nother) voice in his head (out of many) who used to use his staff to decide which way to go. Literally, he'd just let go of it, and follow whichever way it pointed.

If it was painfully obviously the wrong way (e.g. the rogue came back and said "this [other way] is the right way, and everybody knows he's right), he'd move the staff so it was pointing the right way with his foot and claim his divination had been successful. I never decided if he was quite insane enough to believe his own lie, or if that was pride heaped onto his madness.

[Takewo]

I'd say its an indicator that the player is bored or is having trouble empathizing with or getting a handle on their character in the situation. Worst case, it can also be a form of attention-seeking behavior - they can do something that might piss people off, but say 'the dice made me do it!'

I believe it also is a huge sign of when a player is not engaged in the story. Being silly for an afternoon is fun. But if you are systematically letting the dice decide what your character does I would assume that it is because you don't engage with the story or your character.

[Yukitsu]

Hello Playground,

Recently my players have taken to a strange trend. They are starting to roll dice(normally a will save) to determine what their character would do. This could be anything to seeing if they find a joke funny, to if they care about the NPC the rest of the party is interacting with. Recently, this kind of thing has spread into combat actions, as a new character rolled a will save to "get involved" when the rest of the party was attacked by a water elemental instead of just ignoring them.

Is this normal? Would/do you allow this at your table? My thoughts are that you should be in control of your character's choices and you should not need to make rolls to determine your own volition.

My group does this rather a lot. I personally don't all that often but we like to do it for completely trivial things. I don't see anything too wrong about it, it typically comes up when a character is designed to act in a certain way, where they would want to act that way but where it wouldn't necessarily be all that appropriate, so they decide to roll to see if they go ahead and do the thing or not. Provides for some interesting comedy at the table.

[Honest Tiefling]

I admit, I sometimes do it. If my character has a phobia or impulse problems I often find it easier to let the dice decide when too much is too much and the character's willpower breaks. I could decide for the character when they cannot take it anymore, but I find that the dice deciding can be interesting because then I have to justify why it is happening now. Also, it makes it so it happens not just when convenient or dramatic.

[Bard1cKnowledge]

Something something Sasuke

Something something brooding

Next time he fails a save, make it clear that a failed save means a negative thing.

Such as he drops 10 gold (spitballing here) have the "reward" increase everytime or scale it for the current situation

[toapat]

Hello Playground,

Recently my players have taken to a strange trend. They are starting to roll dice(normally a will save) to determine what their character would do. This could be anything to seeing if they find a joke funny, to if they care about the NPC the rest of the party is interacting with. Recently, this kind of thing has spread into combat actions, as a new character rolled a will save to "get involved" when the rest of the party was attacked by a water elemental instead of just ignoring them.

Is this normal? Would/do you allow this at your table? My thoughts are that you should be in control of your character's choices and you should not need to make rolls to determine your own volition.

certainly in the case of the water elemental this is crossing the line, because the player should already know whether the character really cares or not about getting their allies killed.

The way i personally feel about the "let the dice decide" is if the character has specifically a variety of valid, conflicting, and non - pre - determined ways they would respond or do. IE one concept of my avatar is that she is an actress, and would equally likely either begin playing her lute or jump up on the tavern table and strip for the crowd.

[MrNobody]

It's something i've done myself, but only in really really special situations when a severe conflict arose within my (usually lawful) character feelings/personal belief and its duties. Normally, making the save means that it manages to overcome personal thoughts and "do what must be done", failing it means that it "listens to its heart" and acts accordingly.

I must say that, before making such a roll, I talk it out with the DM (a small talk... i'm not stopping the game for ages for "personal issues"!): I explain him the situation of conflict, ask for advices (there may be a point i'm not considering) at, in the end, ask him the DC for the saving throw.

[icefractal]

Player - *rolls a die* - to group - I say we go left.

I do this one. When you have a choice with no information, it's not really a decision, it's just a random guess. So I prefer to make it explicitly random and move along to a choice that actually matters.

[Ruslan]

Sometimes it's fun to distance yourself from your character

Exactly this.
They are creating a disconnect between "that's what I would do" and "that's what my character would do". As long as they're not being actively disruptive ("I rolled a 1 ... guess that means I have to attack the king in front of his bodyguards and the entire court"), I say just let them roll with it, pun inended.

[ShaneMRoth]

...
Recently, this kind of thing has spread into combat actions, as a new character rolled a will save to "get involved" when the rest of the party was attacked by a water elemental instead of just ignoring them.

Is this normal? Would/do you allow this at your table?

This is not normal. This is not neutral. It is depraved indifference.

And I wouldn't allow it.

Anything that causes me to give players this look...



...requires an application of DM discretion.

I have a standing house rule that I am not obligated to facilitate one player having his fun at the direct expense of anyone else at the table. Including me.

Standing back and letting other players get murdered, (I'm assuming the elemental is inflicting lethal damage here) is not a legitimate option for a player.

The player can use dice to decide how he is going to help the other players, but he is damn sure going to help them. I wouldn't even present it as an option.

"I don't care exactly how your character helps the other characters deal with this elemental, but your character is going to do something helpful. If I have to take control of your character then so be it, but there is no stand and do nothing option on the table.

And so I don't have to say it later... Yes, this is railroading.

Is your character going to help the other characters out on your terms or mine?"

[nedz]

Maybe they're playing the Diceman ?

Personally I'd just ignore it and move on; also PC choices, however derived, are not the DM's responsibility.

[gom jabbarwocky]

"I don't care exactly how your character helps the other characters deal with this elemental, but your character is going to do something helpful. If I have to take control of your character then so be it, but there is no stand and do nothing option on the table.

And so I don't have to say it later... Yes, this is railroading.

Is your character going to help the other characters out on your terms or mine?"

I agree. "Don't be an obstinate weirdo, if the party is being attacked, you attack back!"

Personally I'd just ignore it and move on; also PC choices, however derived, are not the DM's responsibility.

Good point. I mostly agree in principle. In most cases, it's not the GM's responsibility, but this particular affectation appears to be setting the tone for the entire game. If it's affecting it in a bad way, the GM can and maybe should speak up. If it isn't, the GM probably shouldn't bother. All that matters is that we're having fun, right? I can sort of empathize - rolling dice is fun! So why not roll dice all the time?! But role playing can also be fun. If the players aren't having fun role playing, maybe they would resort to dice rolling as a fun alternative? I don't know, but it sounds possible. Maybe the GM can make non-dice rolling stuff more engaging for the players, and best way to figure out how is by broaching the topic.

Also, it's just poor usage of the rules. Will saves don't work like that. Maybe if your character was really stoic, you might roll a Will save to not cry at something very emotional, but once it gets so broad as to determine whether or not my PC cares enough at this point in time to help the party ward off a murderous water elemental, ah, I do not think you're using it right.

[EccentricCircle]

I use self inflicted will saves on occasion.
Usually in situations when the Character knows that they probably shouldn't do something, but wants to anyway.

So if the Rogue wants to pick someones pocket, but its not really a good idea they might roll a will save to resist the temptation.
I did something similar in a game the other week when my character had just been hit by a trap, and so was reluctant to go charging into the next part of the story, so I rolled a will save to see whether she kept back or overcame her fear.

The other time i've done this to quite good effect is with going to sleep.
Often a day will end with one character taking first watch and the others all saying "Ok I sleep for Eight hours".
Never in my entire real life have I announced that I was going to sleep and then immediately fallen asleep for eight hours, so I sometimes roll to see whether my character actually does fall asleep or not.