Monk: Flurry of Blows

[Eldritch_Ent]

Okay, this is a thread about the Monk's flurry of blows. Why? Because I find it somewhat confusing. (This is not a thread about monks in general, just flurry of blows.)

First off, is there any reason NOT to use it constantly? There doesn't appear to be any downsides to it, unless you count "extra attacks" to be a downside... (The fact it has it's own BAB table and isn't just included witht he monk's regular BAB makes me think there should be a downside somewhere.)

Second, Is the ability only "Balanced" because of the monk's low BAB progression? What would happen if, say, you gave the ability to a fighter?

Edit: Third, at what point would you consider extra attacks becoming "Overpowered"?

There's other questions I'm sure, but I can't think of any at the moment.

[brian c]

Once you're high level 9, there's no penalty anymore so you pretty much should use it all the time, yes. It has it's own attack bonus column because it can be a little confusing keeping track of when you get the second flurry attack and when the attack penalties decrease.

[Jack Mann]

You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

[Douglas]

At first, it gives you an attack penalty. A level 1 Monk can get two attacks with flurry, but they are each at -2 from his normal attack bonus. Once you reach Monk 9, however, the penalty goes away and there is no reason not to use it every time you make a full attack.

It's "balanced" both by average BAB, a limited list of subpar weapons it can be used with, and the requirement to be unarmored. Removing any or all of these factors would substantially increase the ability's power, but it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to bring a non ToB melee class up to the power level of full casters.

[Jack Mann]

Hell, it would barely be enough to bring the monk up to the fighter's level.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Meh, a monk's real power lies in her saves. Mmmm multiclassing monk.

[Turcano]

Hell, it would barely be enough to bring the monk up to the fighter's level.

"But... four attacks!"

[Kevka Palazzo]

"But... four attacks!"

Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

[Ramza00]

Four attacks that barely hits, and barely do any damage.

And by the time they do hit, a fighter/barbarian will be power attacking for far more damage.

Normal Monk isn't worth it even for flurry.

----------------------------

That said I don't have this book, but the eberron book Secrets of Sarlona has a great monk feat. Tashalatora requires the feat Monastic Training in a psionic class. Make the psionic class the prestige class Warmind.

Tashalatora for the cost of two feats progresses your monk Unarmed Damage, Flurry of Blows, and Monk AC whenever you take levels in that psionic class.

Thus a Monk 4/Fighter 1/Warmind 10/X 5 (X being full bab)
will have the Monk Unarmed Damage of a 14th lvl monk (superior unarmed strike and a monk belt will make it 20), have a bab of 19, flurry as a 14th lvl monk, have 70+power points with 6 powers known up to 5th lvl psychic warrior powers.

Have your party wizard cast some buffs on you (Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Wallop, Greater Mage Armor), and invest in a mode of flight and you can go to town.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

Monk Redux

[Turcano]

Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

Four attacks that barely hits, and barely do any damage.

And by the time they do hit, a fighter/barbarian will be power attacking for far more damage.

Normal Monk isn't worth it even for flurry.

No, the proper comeback is:

Spoiler

Show

"What a waste. While the rest of us were having fun and talking to girls, you were at home in the monastery, learning to use your 'bare hands,' if you get my drift."
"So... lonely... and for what? Bwaaaaaaah!"
"There, there. It's not your fault your class fails to achieve its basic design intent. Now get the hell out of here before a man with a REAL class decides to change the meaning of the phrase, 'fighting unarmed.'"

[JaronK]

To answer the OP, yes there are times when flurry is a bad plan. Flurry gives you only your strength as a bonus to damage, but you could instead use a quarterstaff two handed and get 1.5X strength to damage, which may well be necessary for getting through DR.

JaronK

[Roderick_BR]

In 3.0, Monks had a "unarmed Base Attack" that was the normal BAB, but with extra attacks based on "-3" instead of "-5", with the option to flurry, like a TWF for unarmed attack, and later the feat Lightning Fist that was like Improved TWF for unarmed. In 3.5 they got hid of the unarmed extra attacks and mixed it direcly with the flurry. So, the problems with flurry: At lower levels, you get a penalty to attack, like TWF. At higher levels, you rarely have the chance to flurry, needing to resort to charges more often, and you can do more damage with two handed weapons. But if you can do a full attack and is not using any special weapon, you should always flurry.

[Pax_Chi]

Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

Actually, according to 3.5, a Monk's unarmed strikes count as weapons for the purpose of spells and abilities that enhance weapons or natural weapons. A Psionic Monk could use either Weapons of Energy or Claws of Energy on his unarmed strikes as if his fists and feet were natural or manufactured weapons.

[squishycube]

You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

If I recall correctly it is often better to take a penalty to attack rolls if it means you can make an extra attack. This is obvious against low AC critters, but goes for high AC opponents all the same. Just don't expect both attacks to hit, you should expect a larger chance for one of the attacks to hit.
I can't recall my exact calculations, but it came down to something like "only if the penalty means you have to roll a 20 to hit you shouldn't take a penalty to get extra attacks." This may be incorrect, but it was something like that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, according to 3.5, a Monk's unarmed strikes count as weapons for the purpose of spells and abilities that enhance weapons or natural weapons. A Psionic Monk could use either Weapons of Energy or Claws of Energy on his unarmed strikes as if his fists and feet were natural or manufactured weapons.

Yes. So you rely on your caster friend even more than a fighter does, as you can't permanently enchant your fists.

[JaronK]

Which, some would say, is why the Kensai class was created.

JaronK

[Ninja Chocobo]

Or you take levels in Kensai...
Edit: Ack! How could the ninja be ninja'd.
It makes no sense!

[Yuki Akuma]

And here I was thinking this was a thread about monks.

[JaronK]

Hehe, I ninja'd the ninja!

[JaronK]

It is. But some PrCs are created to go with certain base classes... Frenzied Berserker off of Barbarian, for example, or Radient Servant of Pelor off of Cleric. Any discussion of the balance of the base class should at least consider base classes designed to go well with that class, and the Kensai is well designed to fit with monks (allows you to keep taking levels of monk, must be lawful, can enchant fists).

JaronK

[Dausuul]

You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

Not true. The increased number of attacks makes it worthwhile in almost all circumstances. At first level, for instance, you either break even or come out ahead by using Flurry, unless your opponent has an AC of exactly 18 plus your non-Flurrying attack bonus. (At 17 or 19, you average the same number of hits whether you Flurry or not, and at 20+ or 16-, Flurry wins.)

Unless you happen to know your opponent's exact AC, the main reason for not Flurrying is that you had to spend a move action or charge to reach the target and so can't Flurry this round.

[squishycube]

Thanks Dausuul for providing the crunch I missed in my post.

[Caelestion]

Of course, since your fists are mindless, they can't be enchanted. They could be imbued, enhanced or other adjectives though.

[Starsinger]

Isn't there a necklace in Savage Species (terrible book, I know) that allows you to put enhancement bonuses on it that transfer to natural attacks?

[the_tick_rules]

combine improved natural attack from MM and superior natural attack from book of nine swords and a monks fists are bruce lee death. if your good add sactify and then holy ki strike and your rolling fistfuls of dice. yeah the flurry becomes pretty much a regular of full choice attacks as it gets better. you can add two weapon fighting, rules are on wizards site, but the penalties and perhaps better feat choices make it's choosing your own choice.

[Matthew]

Nah, what you want is that Whirling Steel Ebberon Feat that lets you use a Long Sword as part of a Flurry of Blows. Start out as a Human Fighter 1 and switch into Monk... or be a Sword Sage or whatever...

[Falconsflight]

My only question about natural attacks is this.
2,000+MW weapon price makes a 2d6 greatsword have a +1 magical bonus.
Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?

[NEO|Phyte]

Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?

Oh look, I'm a thri-kreen, all 5 of my natural weapons (plus my unarmed strikes, which I can have a boatload of with MWF/flurry) are now +1.

[Tor the Fallen]

"only if the penalty means you have to roll a 20 to hit you shouldn't take a penalty to get extra attacks."

Well, if you have to roll a 20 to hit, swing as many times as you can. More chances to critical that way.