Build Advice: Dragonfire Adept/Incarnate

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I was cruising the Currently Recruiting PbP thread and I came across a game that made me realize I haven't really gotten much use out of two of my newer books. I've been itching to try out classes from Dragon Magic and Magic of Incarnum. Since I'm interested in both, I thought, "Hey let's try a combo." So I find myself looking at a human Dragonfire Adept 5/Incarnate 2. I don't have the concept fully fleshed out. I've taken the build as far as buying skill ranks. For feats, invocations, soulmelds, etc., however, I wouldn't mind some advice from those who have a bit more experience with these classes.

Any thoughts, suggestions, general play tips, or other such words of wisdom?

(Oh, yeah, just follow the link above to find the allowed material and other such rules for the character. But note that I do not personally have access to Heroes of Horror, Dungeonscape, Cityscape, Magic item Compendium, Spell Compendium, or the Fiendish Codexs.)

[Ramza00]

I don't know if you should mix Dragonfire Adept and Incarnate, there isn't much synergy if I recall.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713902
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=751632
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=780301

What is the setting? Try to get access to the spell venomfire, either by a party cleric or druid using a 3rd lvl slot for you or a wand. Should help your damage immensly. Caster Level*d6 bonus acid damage when ever your use your acid breath.

The slow breath is amazing. Fail the fort save and you are slowed for 2 rounds, pass the save and you are slowed for 1 round. No matter what you are affected (unless you have mettle). Your party will love you. Combine the slow breath with Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Now people that are affected by your breath are also entangled for 1d4 rounds. You are like a battlefield control wizard, except you can spam your breaths.

You also have an effect similar to Solid Fog if I recall.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=838259

[PinkysBrain]

Unless your DM is willing to let you qualify for Soulcaster (doesn't work by RAW) it's a silly combination.

I doubt very many DMs allow Venomfire.

[Ramza00]

I doubt very many DMs allow Venomfire.

...Try to get access to the spell venomfire...

Yes it will most likely won't happen, but at least try

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I don't know if you should mix Dragonfire Adept and Incarnate, there isn't much synergy if I recall.

Not a whole ton. A high Constitution benefits both classes. That's about where it ends.

Yeah, I know it's not a particularly optimal combinatition from a mechanical viewpoint. That's why I'm interested in getting a bit more input from other people. If I were playing either class straight, I'd have chosen to explore it on my own. But I figure a strange little combonation like this, it's best to find out what's good and what sucks from other people because what sucks is likely to do so 10 times more than normal when you don't have the class levels to make up fo it.

[Person_Man]

Not much I can tell you about Incarnum, since I never use the rules. Fax knows a good deal about it though, so you might want to PM him if he doesn't see the thread.

Dragonfire Adepts, like full casters, are generally best if you don't multi-class. I played a battlefield control build using one in the world's largest dungeon for a while, and he cleaned up.

My preferred race for them is Dragonborn, since it works thematically and abrogates the need to get flight through Invocations.

The Dragonfire builds I'm aware of revolve around battlefield control, or Fear, or Charm/Social Skills. If you settle on what exactly you want to do, I can give combo and feat advice.

Also, there are a number of metabreath feats in the Draconomicon that have a wierd requirement (must have a delay between breath effects expressed in rounds). Some DM's interpret that to mean they didn't want the metabreath feats used by builds that have X uses per day day, but they just wrote it very poorly. Others interpret it to mean that it has to have an explicit delay between their breath weapon effects, like a Dragon Shaman's. Check with your DM to see which way he rules, because some of them can really help.

[Fax Celestis]

Totemist is a better idea to work with than Incarnate. Better AB, better soulmelds, and access to the Totem chakra.

Focus on Metabreath feats (as Ramza and Person Man elucidated above) and use your Totemist levels to acquire things like extra breath weapons that deal different types of damage (Gorgon Mask, Behir Gorget), natural attacks (Girallon Arms, Rageclaws), or make you more mobile (Blink Shirt, Phase Cloak).

Also remember the soulmelds available in Dragon Magic.

Sticking with Incarnate might be a better idea from an RP perspective, but its uses will vary greatly depending on your alignment.

[Ramza00]

Dragonfire Adepts don't need a high attack bonus since there breath weapons and invocations are not tied to it.

Note you can't use the Dracomicon breath weapon feats since you must have a breath weapon in rounds for those. You can use the Races of the Dragon breath weapon feats.

[PinkysBrain]

Not a whole ton. A high Constitution benefits both classes.

Not really, you only need con 12 to max out the number of souldmelds you can shape.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not really, you only need con 12 to max out the number of souldmelds you can shape.

Uh, a Constitution of 12 only lets you make two soulmelds. The number of soulmelds you can make is limited to your Constitution score minus 10, or a number based on your level, whichever is less. Since a 2nd-level Incarnate has a level limit of 3, it would be a good idea for me to have a Constitution of at least 13.

And the level limits max at 9 by 20th level. That means we want a Constitution of up to 19.

[hr]
Yeah, I see the mechanical advantages to the totemist. I'm still a bit more attached to Incarnate from a conceptual level, though. Still, I'll consider it.

BTW—Races of the Dragon isn't on the current allowed list for this game. And I don't have any real access to a copy, so that makes the possibility of asking for a special allowance would be difficult to say the least. (Of course, the latter problem can be partially overcome through some shady weblinks like Realmshelp... )

[Person_Man]

Not really, you only need con 12 to max out the number of souldmelds you can shape.

Fair point.

But IMO, Con should always be the highest or second highest stat of most builds. High hit points and a strong Fort Save are two of the most important defenses any build can have (and every caster needs a decent Concentration check at low levels, though that's not relevant to this build).


Also, can you tell us what soulmelds you'd like to use Shhal?

[Fax Celestis]

Not really, you only need con 12 to max out the number of souldmelds you can shape.

Uh, no? "Max soulmelds shaped equal to Con score -10, or listed on the table, whichever is less."

EDIT: Also: what alignment are you looking at?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Also, can you tell us what soulmelds you'd like to use Shhal?

Don't have any in particular in mind at the moment. I'm still at the point where I'm thinking, "Hey, it would be great to try out a new class!" without a lot of focus on the details. As such, I'm open to any suggestions. However, I wouldn't mind keeping room on most days' meld allotment for one of the new ones in Dragon Magic simply to keep with the theme.

what alignment are you looking at?

Neutral Good.

Though with some of the other character concepts floating around, I might have to consider Lawful Neutral as an alternative. There appears to be some interest in shadier characters, and I don't want to have to worry about alignment-based intraparty conflict too much.

[PinkysBrain]

Uh, no? "Max soulmelds shaped equal to Con score -10, or listed on the table, whichever is less."

Oops, should have been con 13. Still, not really dependent on con much.

Shhalar, the character will be a lot more fun if you can get your DM to let you play a soulcaster.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, yes, at first level. Incarnate has 3 at second level, up to 9 at 17th (I think; I am AFB). Pumping Con anyway isn't a bad idea, since it improves your Fort save and HP (and save DC for your breath weapon, if I recall correctly).

[Zagreen]

About all I can think of doing would be to shape the Elder Spirit draconic soulmeld and pump your UMD (at level 7 with 2 essentia in Elder Spirit and max in-class ranks from DFA you'd have a UMD check of +18 before adding in CHA bonus). You could get tons of Intimidate too but that's not as useful.

[Kevka Palazzo]

I've always heard some bad things about Magic of Incarnum. Leastways I've heard from lots of folk that it's a bad book. Is it worth checkin' out?

[Fax Celestis]

I've always heard some bad things about Magic of Incarnum. Leastways I've heard from lots of folk that it's a bad book. Is it worth checkin' out?

You're talking to the wrong people. It's a terrific book, if a bit complex.

Shhahlahr, here's my recommended soulmelds:

Crown: Crystal Helm (essentia to AC); Or Elder Dragon (see below)
Feet: Airstep Sandals (Fly speed. Probably a good one to bind, too, for perfect maneuverability); or Impulse Boots (Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion when bound)
Hands: I'm a fan here of Lucky Dice, but that's just my kind of game. Try Lightning Gauntlets.
Arms: Bluesteel Bracers, but not really worth binding; or Incarnate Weapon, if you're tough.
Brow: Mage's Spectacles. Either this or Elder Dragon.
Shoulders: Adamant Pauldrons. Fortification without needing to pay for it!
Throat: I'm a particular fan of Soulspark Familiar, but you might be better served with Apparition Ribbon's incorporeal ability.
Waist: Dragon Tail. Fits with the theme, certainly.
Heart: Spellward Shirt, unless you plan on getting SR from elsewhere.
Soul: Incarnate Avatar. Always Incarnate Avatar.

Do note these are geared towards a lawful character. Some of these would change for a good one.

And yes, I am fully aware you can't use all of these yet. But, those are some of the best for you.

[Ramza00]

I've always heard some bad things about Magic of Incarnum. Leastways I've heard from lots of folk that it's a bad book. Is it worth checkin' out?

They don't have a clue what they are talking about.

They look at it, didn't think its good for all the abilities give you small bonuses that scale. Thing is you get multiple small bonuses and suddenly you are doing better than 2/3rds the 40 or so base classes wizard has done (and are seriously competing with the good Tome of Battle classes, but not the casters)

More here

Spoiler

Show

Incarnum does to melee similar options what Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords does it gives them more options, and the thing melee needs most mobility.

It can also help a skill user.

Instead of rehasing things I said before I will just link you two threads.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39616
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=826781

Also check out the char op threads.

Incarnum
Incarnum Tricks/Combos/Builds
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530815

Incarnate by the numbers
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633
Soulborn Handbook
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=592729

Totemist Mobility Expert: 1-20 Build Optimization
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=666169
The Soulmeld Eater, master of negative levels
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=586076
Does Incarnum save the Samurai?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=527135
The Incarnum Four: Four Unique Totemist Builds to Annoy Your DM or Players!
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789365

Free excerpt Draconic Soulmelds - meant for incarnum classes; soulmelds from Dragon Magic
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3...12a%26page%3D4
Free excerpt Psionics of Incarnum - psionic soulmelds and the Soul Manifester (dual psionic and meldshaping advancement)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3.../psm/20060217a

Read a thread discussing what is good about it
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40563

I recommend you start by Incarnate by the Numbers

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Shhahlahr, here's my recommended soulmelds:
...

Ooh! Thanks. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Okay, follow-up...

I was interested in taking the feat Draconic Aura. I was originally looking at the Swiftness aura. Unfortunately, I just now noticed that the speed bonus only applies to climb, swim, and fly speeds. it doesn't affect land speed.

Any particular Auras you'd recommend? None of the others appeal to me quite the same.

If you're curious, here's my sheet for the character I've been building: Gerard Dailken

[Matthew]

So, what Auras did you end up with?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Went with a fire resistance aura.

I have a strong feeling a different energy might wind up a bit more useful for the campaign, but fire seemed to be most appropriate to the character.