GURPS vs. Specialized RPG

[Mr. Mask]

I've seen GURPS recommended a lot, but haven't had the time to play it. It's made me wonder how GURPS fares for a specific setting, compared to an RPG purpose made for that setting.

So, let's say you wanted to make a cowboy game. How would GURPS with its expansions compare to playing it with Aces and Eights or Savage Lands?

Or if you wanted to play a high fantasy RPG, how would it compare to Ars Magica, DnD, etc.?

Or if you wanted to play a Shadowrun type RPG, how would it compare to Shadowrun?


Anyone tried both GURPS and one of these RPGs, and gotten a feel for which you prefer (GURPS or a purpose made RPG)? If anyone has tried FATE or the like, you can join in on how it compares to purpose made RPGs.

[Mr Beer]

I've used GURPS for high fantasy, in fact I enjoy D&D more now that I use a GURPS engine.

I also used GURPS for a low-power supers/investigation game set in 1920s, this worked well.

There is more effort involved that a specialist system, since GURPS is less a system and more a toolbox.

It's very rewarding for simulationists, since there is a model for everything somewhere.

It's highly portable between settings (obviously) and SJG makes a big deal about their world-hopping campaign setting in the Basic Set because that's a draw. I haven't had much benefit from that myself because I pretty much play high fantasy, although Expedition To Barrier Peaks was great, because instead of jamming high-tech weaponry into a system not designed for it, I just pulled laser rifles, grenades, power armour etc. straight out of the books.

If I'm running a game and have time to do the work, I would use GURPS over any system I've played in, not a huge list but still (D&D, 40K, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, FATE, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu and a few more). That said, if I wanted to run a game quickly, I'd use a specialist system. If I wanted to run D&D, I've already done the work, so GURPS either way.

[Mr. Mask]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

[Vrock_Summoner]

The thing about GURPS and Fate is that they're just really good systems all-around, which means that when they're tailored to a particular setting, they're almost always at least decent. So other things being "dedicated systems" isn't enough, they have to be good dedicated systems.

GURPS can run general fantasy... Well, fantastically. This may be my personal system bias showing through, but I do think GURPS does what D&D intends to do better than D&D does it. Now, this is the internet, and D&D's design goals did not match what was produced, so the thing D&D is actually good for really doesn't even look like standard fantasy... And at this weird nonstandard thing, it does admittedly excel. As for Ars Magica... Well, depending on your viewpoint, it's either not standard fantasy at all, or it's standard fantasy made so hardcore that it laughs at Lord of the Rings for being too casual and not setting enough trends. Either way, Ars Magica does what it does a thousand times better than GURPS ever could, but that's because its nonstandard qualities are its best ones, and GURPS is a system aimed at standardizing other settings.

I think GURPS does the "downtrodden PC" type games extremely well, though, as well as any dedicated horror or World of Darkness game, in my opinion. Giving the PCs unique and strong but limited abilities is one of the best things GURPS does, mechanically.

Of course, the real reason you should buy GURPS or Fate, aside from fantastic writing in both... Is so that you don't have to teach your friends a new system every time you want to try a different genre game. Some would consider that bit alone to be absolutely worth a drop in product quality, and as I mentioned earlier, even that didn't happen; GURPS and Fate are written and designed extremely well.

Basically, what I'm saying is, if you already have a really good system down for what you're after, there's no point switching to GURPS, even if it'll do about as well, since you, y'know, already have a good system. If you don't, though, either because your current system is crappy or you just don't have one, pick GURPS up; it has a high chance of being way better than the product you were going to buy instead, and you don't have to spend even more money next time you want to try another new game style.

[goto124]

But... you have to tailor GURPS to fit your game... so if you haven't even tried what you were going to try... how do you... do... that...?

It's like being asked to design a game of genre X when you have yet to play a game of genre X.

[Knaight]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

It depends. There are lots of specialized games which are very good and which have draws that GURPS doesn't, but they have to be very good. If they aren't, GURPS, Fudge, Fate, Savage Worlds, or a number of other generics will do a better job with their setting than the system built for it. The other matter is of tone - while generic games tend to cross genres extremely well, they often have trouble with tonal shifts. GURPS is a gritty game by nature, and it doesn't do superheroes, really high powered fantasy, or other things all that well.

There's also the matter of personal taste. GURPS is a really heavy game with a number of long lists of incredibly narrow skills, traits, etc. If you're not fond of that sort of thing, it won't be your cup of tea.

[illyahr]

Specialized systems are better if you want something quick. If you are willing to put some time into what you are doing, GURPS can be adapted to nearly anything.

A bit of trivia for you: the Fallout series of video games was initially supposed to run on GURPS but they couldn't get the rights to it in time, so they had to craft their own system roughly based on it.

[jindra34]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

No, and the reason why is pretty simple. GURPS is best used as a toolkit from which to build a game, and using a module will still require most of the work.

[Segev]

I, personally, do not like GURPS.

I think it does do modern-day settings, and anything you want to be gritty, well.

It does not do high fantasy well.

For a universal system, its magic system is extremely rigid and fluff-tied, demanding that you incorporate elements that are at least as specific as any setting-specific magic system (unless you want to throw out their magic system and make something up...at which point you're not really using GURPS magic anymore).

It also commits what is, for a "universal" RPG, a cardinal sin: it is very "how"-based. That is, your MEANS of achieving a result in fluff changes the mechanics dramatically. As an example, I was in a game where somebody was trying to build an android with a flame-thrower power, and somebody else was building a mage with a fireball power. I forget which it was, but they both could do it more-or-less at will but one paid significantly more points for less damage and area. One was simply determined by GURPS to be the better "method" for spewing fire into an area for purposes of harming targets.


When I want a generic system, I tend to go more for BESM. It is simpler (though definitely still breakable, and thus requires a GM to say "no" to some things), cleaner, and is a "what"-based system: you determine the net mechanical effect and then pay the points; HOW you do it in fluff is up to you. One person's energy-burning flamethrower is another's mana-consuming fireball, but both are Weapons with the "Costs EP" drawback and cost the same points for the same end result of "fire in an area doing X damage."

That said, BESM is not as good at specific settings as systems built for them.

That is going to be generically true, even for poorly-designed systems, because the setting informed the system design and vice-versa. GURPS does not work as well as Palladium in Rifts, despite Palladium being a...clunky system, at best. BESM would similarly work less well.

d20, being designed originally for D&D, works quite well for mid-to-high fantasy, but tends to work less well in modern and future settings.


So no, I would not say GURPS works as well for specific settings as games designed for those settings.

[AceOfFools]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

No.

GURPS is in fact a fairly terrible engine for a wide range of games and genres.

1 it's horrifically unbalanced as written, the best example being that it's a fairly small point investment to have a sidekick that is always present built on more points than the PC has. As a GM you have to throughly examine each character (or detail a large last if not okay powers).

2 They erred way on the side of too many options especially when it comes to minutia like kick, punch and sweep kick being not only different mechanically to do in game, but you can spend a resources on them differenty.

This problematic for two reasons. One huge amounts of prep work from both a player and a GM is going to be spent hunting around rule books to find what is allowed among rules that aren't relevant to the game. And it can take a lot of headspace to keep all options allowed in mind in game.

3 The core combat engine is extremely broken and gritty. A reasonably stron character with a sword can deal damage in excess of a reasonable high hp character's max health per attack, although 0 and negative hp does not mean dead. DR (as provided by armor) sews the game horribly between those who invest heavily in it (only volunerable to weapons that can bypass it) and those who don't (most attacks are fatal).

Also, the amount of time you can spend negating attacks back and forth until someone gets lucky... ugh.

4. The bell curve off 3d6 roll under leaves range of skilled very narrow. I.e. 10 in a skill is close to a 50/50, 14 is a ~75 percent chance of success, and a 15 is a 5 out a 6 chance.

I could keep going.

GURPS is good if and only if you want a gritty game where combat is something that is dangerous, that clever people will try to avoid. Where characters have limited powers, but have to do a vast array of things (crash land a spaceship without dying and the research which plants they can eat where they land).

If youwant to play high adventuren tactical (as opposed to strategic), cinematic games, don't use GURPS.

[NichG]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

When you purchase a game system, what do you want it to do for you?

[dream]

You can use GURPS for anything except superheroes, IME (powers like Super-Strength just don't work in relation to available points).

For a "Wild West" type game, there's Old West, Big Lizzie, & Gun Fu.

For a Shadowrun-style game, there's Cyberpunk, Bio-Tech, Ultra Tech & Fantasy.

For "High Fantasy", there's a ton of fantasy related material (30+ books!)

There are a great deal of options to choose from and that makes character generation longer, but you end up with that exact PC you're wanting, rather than playing classes/archetypes that "specialized" games offer. Any class from D&D/PF can be done in GURPS, and then some.

GURPS also has a more "simulationist" approach to combat, so it can be deadly, but only if the group decides that's what they want. The modular nature of GURPS allows for any kind of game experience you want, with optional rules for more "cinematic" campaigns.

The wide range of options aren't a flaw, they're an outstanding feature of the system. Now, if you want a crunchy, rules-intense experience, there's HERO system. It ends up being a matter of taste.

Final note, a game system isn't broken simply because one doesn't like it. Again, it's gaming taste. No system is perfect.

[Mr Beer]

So, does it go to the extent where RPG designers should just use the GURPS engine to make their games rather than make a new system?

Well no. Because it depends what you want out of a game. GURPS is simulationist, a toolkit and crunchy.

So if you want a something straight out of the tin, or highly streamlined or narrative based, you may as well build something else. Or use FATE...I think that would be a good option for switching gears without ever having to learn more than 2 systems.

[Red Fel]

Well no. Because it depends what you want out of a game. GURPS is simulationist, a toolkit and crunchy.

Very much this. As the disparity between posts in this thread suggests, there's a broad gulf between "can" and "should." Can GURPS be used for anything? Just about. Should it? That's trickier.

GURPS is extremely mechanically-intensive. The math and design is heavily front-loaded, and requires either fairly comprehensive system mastery or a very patient and helpful GM to walk you through it. Having a GM who knows the system well enough to set a sufficient point-buy level is more or less mandatory. My own GM had a piece of chargen software with pretty much every book in it, and I can safely say that even someone with his level of system mastery would have had to spend hours designing a single character if he didn't have that program.

By way of example, I was in one campaign where one player played a silent, odious, shirtless brute who did obscene amounts of bare-fisted damage, could pretty much return from death after every combat, and had a damage measured in mooks per round. (Seriously. He had a combination of abilities that basically allowed him to drop one nameless mook per attack, and he got a number of attacks each round.) We had another PC, in this same campaign, whose primary special abilities were stealth skills, and a paintbrush that inexplicably produced an unlimited supply of C4. He wanted to do this specific concept, so the GM ran some numbers, compared some abilities, and came up with the right combination of abilities and modifiers to let him do that.

If you can run a game where a disgruntled brawler with damage measured in mooks per round and a masked whackjob with a paintbrush full of explosives can travel through timespace and fight dinosaur-riding Nazis while being paid in emeralds the size of your fist, you can pretty much run any game. That's what I'm trying to say.

It just takes a lot of work and system mastery to get there.

[illyahr]

Ya, what Red Fel said. You should always* listen to Red Fel. He knows what he's talking about.

*Just don't, you know, sign anything.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm shortly about to run a fantasy game with GURPS, and I can say a few things:

-It took me about 2 hours to assemble the list of skills, advantages, and disadvantages I wanted, including psionics (I actually love the core psionics system). This was difficult, just tedious, and I have created skill lists for a handful of time periods to speed it up later. This is due to size, but it's manageable if you stick to the basic set.

-The core magic system is the worst I've seen. I have two magic using worlds I plan to run, one uses Ritual Path Magic, whereas the other has spells be advantages with preparation requires.

-Power levels can vary, my group currently has a highly focused engineer who is useless out of his depth (nearly 200 points in Attributes, but no skills outside the concept and no advantages), and an ESPer soldier/doctor who is less skilled, but harder to challenge due to having a broader skill set (including diplomacy and riding). As I side note, I advised the engineer to reduce her IQ or strength and get broader skills (the character has 10 skills, 4 at 17), but they refused to listen.

[gom jabbarwocky]

... there's a broad gulf between "can" and "should." Can GURPS be used for anything? Just about. Should it? That's trickier.

I can't not read that in Jeff Goldblum's voice; "Yeah, yeah, your games designers were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should!"

More to the point, I'm of the opinion that a system developed with the express purpose of emphasizing and supporting a specific setting or genre will typically be better than a generic system doing the same thing. Part of this is because I remember when the d20 SRD was all the rage, and that meant every game got a d20 version, including my beloved Call of Cthulhu. If there was a worse fit for CoC than d20, I'd rather be ignorant.

Anyway, my main issue with GURPS is that whenever I look at it, I suffer paralysis via overanalysis - in trying to make a system that could do anything, they had to make a system where you could do everything, and everything is just too much. I can't take it in, and I suspect that even if I could, I'd be off-put by how same-y everything feels. And it has to do that, so you can build your dwarven fighter, your cyberpunk hacker, a six-gun wielding gorilla, and a delicious muffin that turns into a robot, all within the same system, and they all have to be able to interact with each other, because that will probably be the party.

This is all just my personal bias, of course. My own experience aside, GURPS works. It's like a big tub of Lego - you can use it to build whatever you can imagine, as long as you're willing to spend hours digging through that big tub to find all the pieces you need. And building with Lego is great, it's lots of fun, but I have to run a game tomorrow evening and I don't have time for that.

Oh, GURPS. I want to love her, but she's just too high-maintenance.

[aspekt]

If you are willing to take one abstraction level away from GURPS then FUDGE might be more appealing. Whereas GURPS is modular, just add splat book(s), FUDGE is actually an outline. It is far more oriented towards description and storytelling, but can be stretched to become more crunchy.

FUDGE is actually probably the source for much of the theory behind FATE, even the dice show that. Originally it was developed by several authors involved in GURPS development. It appears they felt GURPS was attempting to handle too many details at once and in far too literal a fashion. Though I may be wrong on that count.

Either way it sets up a system of creation and resolution that is abstract enough to allow you to build any genre game you would like.

As with FATE I believe it also has a condensed free pdf version.

[goto124]

I suppose GURPS is not suitable for anyone just starting to learn tabletop games? And that it's so weird and crunchy that you give up halfway and switch to an easier, more streamlined system?

Changing the question: Should FATE be used instead of any other system? If not, why?

[Red Fel]

I suppose GURPS is not suitable for anyone just starting to learn tabletop games? And that it's so weird and crunchy that you give up halfway and switch to an easier, more streamlined system?

Actually, once you've gotten rid of the frontloaded stuff, GURPS becomes extremely straightforward. Everything you need to know how to roll is on your sheet, and almost every roll is simple. Roll 3d6; if your total is under your skill or ranks or whatever is written there, you win. Skills? 3d6. Abilities? 3d6. Spells? 3d6. Once you're past the initial hurdle, it gets a lot easier for a player.

That's the thing about streamlining. You either spread the mechanics out over the growth of the character (see e.g. D&D and Pathfinder), or you frontload them and let the rest of the game consist of coasting on simple stuff (see e.g. GURPS).

A new player could get confused by GURPS chargen, but he or she could just as easily be confused by D&D concepts like BAB, DC, AC, DR, SR, and 1d6+3d10-1d20*2d8. By contrast, "Roll 3d6 and score under this number" is pretty easy to grasp.

[goto124]

Aka get someone else more experience to write the character sheet =P

[Red Fel]

Aka get someone else more experience to write the character sheet =P

Well, frankly, if someone's first game is at my table, I at least walk them through chargen, if not do it for them (depending on their preference and inexperience, of course). One of the most disappointing things is if a newcomer is left to do chargen himself. If he gets lost in the rules, he may give up before he begins; if he takes longer than everyone else, he may feel left out and alone; and if he does a poor job and discovers it later, he may get fed up and leave in frustration. Not good outcomes. Walking a first-timer through chargen, in my mind, is the very least a GM or more experienced gamer can do.

[Mr Beer]

One thing with character development, just about every GURPS supplement has ready-to-go templates. So the (excellent) Dungeon Fantasy series of supplements has numerous options that cut character development from...lengthy...to 5 minutes of tweaking.

If you're developing your own setting, spending the time to set up some templates may be worthwhile.

If you're going to have a party mix like the sentient motorcycle and the were-Raven and the evil mummy wizard and the kawaii-dragon, well then, you will be spending plenty of time on character development. On the other hand, GURPS will handle all of those with ease. There's something very satisfying about bizarre builds doing RPG stuff using a crunchy simulationist engine. It adds a much needed feel of realism, at least for me.

[jindra34]

Aka get someone else more experience to write the character sheet =P

Not exactly. But GURPS does require an INNANE level of system mastery to run well. Or at least innane level of mastery of the areas you allow, and good reason for disallowing thing you don't. Because there are lots of cases of abilities that if not properly monitored or noted, can AND will wreck the game. Except each and everyone actually has built in drawbacks and controls to prevent that from happening.

[1337 b4k4]

I suppose GURPS is not suitable for anyone just starting to learn tabletop games? And that it's so weird and crunchy that you give up halfway and switch to an easier, more streamlined system?

Changing the question: Should FATE be used instead of any other system? If not, why?

Actually, my first real introduction to TTRPGs was GURPS (3e). I knew the basics of what D&D was and the ideas behind AC and such from both general geek lore and things like the NWN games. Ultimately, a few friends and I pooled some money for the 3e core book and had at it. Probably the biggest stumbling block for us was realizing we could ignore or gloss over anything we didn't want to get detailed about. We did that anyways (because holy crap GURPS has options and detail) but it would have been nice to have it explicitly stated upfront. Once we did that though, it was actually relatively easy and because GURPS can do just about anything, we never ran into the "I want to do this, but I can't find the rules for it" thing that using a more specialized RPG might. These days, I much prefer more streamlined and less crunchy systems, but as a first go round, GURPS wasn't a bad thing.

With any system, I'd take Red Fel's advice a step further, beyond just pre-gen or walkthrough character gen. If you have a new player and a GM already experienced with the system, the GM should abstract away the system entirely. Give the player a blank character sheet and just have them start playing, and ask the questions that flesh them out as they go. Ask players what they want to do, when they tell you, if the blanks haven't been filled in yet, ask them. It slows things down a bit, but it also lets them start doing things right away. For example:

Spoiler

Show

GM: You reach a locked door
Player: Can I break it open?
GM: Sure, how strong is your character? Would you say less then or more than average?
Player: Maybe a bit above average, I like to work out whenever possible
GM: Ok, so go ahead and fill in a 12 for your ST score, in GURPS a 10 is average, and 11-12 is considered above average. Any specialized training or reason you might be better than the average bear at breaking down doors, maybe you know kung fu?
Player: Yeah, I'm a rough a tumble kid from the streets, I used to get into fights a lot.
GM: Ok, so under your skills put down that you have Brawling which is actually a DX based skill. So how coordinated are you?
Player: Not uncoordinated, but not really graceful either.
GM: Ok, go ahead and write down 10 for your DX score, like I said before that's average. Now, were you an average fighter then, or would you say you were pretty good, despite not being particularly fast on your feet?
Player: I did alright for myself, won more fights than I lost
GM: Ok, so next to your Brawling skill, write down DX +1, that means when you try to do something related to Brawling, like breaking down a door, you'll roll 3 dice and try to get a score less than or equal to your DX score plus 1, or 11.
GM: So let's break down this door, kicking it down will do the most damage, and I assume you're going all out with this kick, you want in no matter what right?
Player: Right.
GM: Ok, so roll 3 dice and you're trying to get a score less than or equal to 13
Player: Wait, I thought you just said it was 11
GM: Good catch! I sure did. In GURPS when you make an attack, there's usually a few extra modifications that might change things based on the situation. In this case, since you're not trying to avoid any real dangers, you actually get a +4 to your skill. But since you're kicking the door for the extra damage, in GURPS that's done at Brawl - 2, so all together, you're rolling DX + 1 + 4 -2 or 13. Don't worry if you didn't get that all up front, I'll guide you as we go. Now roll those dice.
Player: 11
GM: Great, you slam that door with your boot. A kick with your boot does THR damage plus 1. Under Damage Thr. write down 1D - 1, which means you'll roll a die and subtract 1. With the +1 from your boot, roll a die.
etc etc etc

[elliott20]

Threads like this just makes me never want to bother with GURPS and stick with Fate accelerated or Simple World for all of my tabletop RPG needs.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why? GURPS doesn't deserve all the criticism it gets. It is front loaded, but my group has yet to run into actual maths, and I only had to check one of my mental calculations with a calculator (15*0.9, for the ESPer's psionic power). The main complexity in character creation is the giant lists, but as the names are fairly descriptive you can speed it up by just printing out a list without all the rules information.

[Segev]

If you can run a game where a disgruntled brawler with damage measured in mooks per round and a masked whackjob with a paintbrush full of explosives can travel through timespace and fight dinosaur-riding Nazis while being paid in emeralds the size of your fist, you can pretty much run any game. That's what I'm trying to say.

It just takes a lot of work and system mastery to get there.

See, I'd still use BESM or even M&M 3e for this, and I could do it just as well without all the front-loading.

I am curious, though: were both characters built on the same point count?

Getting "mooks per round" in BESM would be difficult on a low point count unless that was all you did (or "mooks" are quite squishy - this is definitely possible). The paint brush making C4 is literally Creation with the Item drawback. Or Weapon with the Trap advantage. There are a number of rather straight-forward ways to achieve it.

Power levels can vary, my group currently has a highly focused engineer who is useless out of his depth (nearly 200 points in Attributes, but no skills outside the concept and no advantages), and an ESPer soldier/doctor who is less skilled, but harder to challenge due to having a broader skill set (including diplomacy and riding). As I side note, I advised the engineer to reduce her IQ or strength and get broader skills (the character has 10 skills, 4 at 17), but they refused to listen.

What skills does the Engineer lack? I know, when I played a hacker in GURPS, I tried building him with skills, but it was just plain CHEAPER in points to get the same target numbers in MORE skills by raising my IQ as high as the GM would let me raise it; I then spent a point or few each in those skills I had to have at least a "rank" in to use, and my high IQ gave me an unbeatable target number.

Skills are...frustrating...in GURPS, because buying them up high enough when you find yourself with a strong enough focus on one stat can be more expensive for less return.

[Anonymouswizard]

See, I'd still use BESM or even M&M 3e for this, and I could do it just as well without all the front-loading.

You see, I played M&M and it just felt samey, with everyone acting the same way. The only difference was the fluff and what defence we targeted, whereas I prefer characters to act differently. For example, in GURPS I might create a TK with:
-Telekinesis 10 (PK -10%) [45]
-Force Field: Damage Reduction 6 (PK -10%, Costs Fatigue 2 -10%) [37]
-Crush: Innate Attack 4d6 (PK -10%, Costs Fatigue 1 -5%) [17]

This gives me the ability to move objects with my mind, including attacking people, but if I strain I can create a defensive force around me or surround a person or object with crushing force. If a telepath wants to attack they might use mind control.

I might like BESM, but I've never seen a copy.

What skills does the Engineer lack? I know, when I played a hacker in GURPS, I tried building him with skills, but it was just plain CHEAPER in points to get the same target numbers in MORE skills by raising my IQ as high as the GM would let me raise it; I then spent a point or few each in those skills I had to have at least a "rank" in to use, and my high IQ gave me an unbeatable target number.

The engineer is missing any skills to do with: athletics, melee combat, social stuff, knowledge that does not have not have to do with making gadgets. Oh, defaulting to a lot of those at 8 or better, but bad enough when, combined with unlucky that being separated from the party is a death sentence.

First session begins with the PCs separated, shortly after they each entered town independently. This was decided when I began world building.

Skills are...frustrating...in GURPS, because buying them up high enough when you find yourself with a strong enough focus on one stat can be more expensive for less return.

Yeah, you have to work out what stats you want to focus on in order to get good skills. I find Talents are useful, they provide a bonus at slightly less than 1 point per skill per +1.

[goto124]

Considering how popular the 'don't split the party' phrase is, may I ask why people... well... split the party?