"I wish for a feat!"

[Dizlag]

Hey all,

I was wondering how you would handle this request from a player. Assuming they have the prerequisites for a given feat and the money for the Wish spell, would you grant them a wish for a new feat? If so, how many times?

I thinking of allowing a player to wish for 2 or 3 feats during their character's existence. I'm also tossing around the idea of requiring two immediate castings of the wish spell, the first one to bestow it upon the character temporarily (say a week) and a second one to make it permanent. Or maybe require the Permanency spell casting instead of the second wish.

So, what do you all think? Unbalancing? Too harsh requiring two castings of a 9th level wizard spell for this effect?

Thanks,

Dizlag

[Arbitrarity]

50K for a feat? Baaaad.

No, seriously. Feats = very, very good. 50K for one feat? Forever? Think about the carnage with builds that say "we're kind of stretched for feats here". Unless of course, it's a skill focus or somesuch. Really, varying powers of feats make this hard to adjucate.

[Telonius]

Hmm. That's a tough one. As written, Wish can't do it. Is a single Feat worth as much as a +1 to an ability score? Depends on the Feat, I guess. I'd ... allow it, achievable with a single Wish. (Maybe throw in a special component they'd need for that kind of casting). But, the player would have to meet the prerequisites for the feat in order for it to work normally. Otherwise, it's Monkey's Paw time. If the player chooses a feat they wouldn't normally qualify for, I'd give it to them, and they can use it. But they'd also get a Flaw along with it.

[Jothki]

Permanent feat-granting is outside the scope of normal magic, but then again so is stat-granting. Assuming that a feat is far more powerful than a stat, Wish probably couldn't normally give feats.

This is where Wish has the potential to be creative. Permanent transformation is certainly within the scope of Wish, so if there's a creature that has that feat, Wish could transform the wisher to that creature as the closest alternative to the spirit of the request. If there is no creature with that feat, Wish would probably try to apply some sort of permanent magic that approximates the benefits of the feat as closely as possible. If there's no way to artificially reproduce the feat, Wish would probably just fizzle.

[InaVegt]

50K for a feat? Baaaad.

You can get an effective improved critical for a +1 bonus, or 6000 GP. However, this cannot be used as a prereq. I'd say a wish should be able to grant it as long as it can't be used as a prereq.

[Jasdoif]

Simply adding a bonus feat for the cost of 5000XP is generally a bad idea. However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request: replacing an existing feat with a new one. A fourth-level psionic power (psychic reformation) can do this, with a far smaller XP cost, so I don't consider this an unbalancing use of wish.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

If someone wished for that I'd probably handle it by having an item that bestows the feat to them when worn. The way I see it with it granting ability score boosts is that such a thing is good for a wish spell; sub-epic. Afterall, there are epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score but is slightly better because it's not an inherent bonus (which can only be +5 anyway). Some feats are better than others, but I'd say only feats you could accomplish around level 15 or so, possibly higher level if they make a costly sacrifice to the casting of the Wish.

[Dizlag]

Arbitrarity: Yeah, it's a tough one to adjudicate because of the range of feats and their level of power. But like Gezina said, "Keen" is a +1 ability ... granted it's on a sword but not on a character. So, is "Mighty Cleaving" a +1 ability granting the wielder the cleave feat.

Telonius: Yes, I was going to require the wisher to have the prerequisites of the feat in order for it to work. However, I like your idea of tossing in a flaw if the wisher doesn't have the prerequisites of the feat.

Jothki: Transforming the wisher into a creature that has the feat is a bit cruel and mean, then again my group would probably appreciate it. Hehehe It's a great suggestion!

Thanks all! Keep the suggestions coming!

[Jothki]

Simply adding a bonus feat for the cost of 5000XP is generally a bad idea. However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request: replacing an existing feat with a new one. A fourth-level psionic power (psychic reformation) can do this, with a far smaller XP cost, so I don't consider this an unbalancing use of wish.

Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?

Anyway, giving an item that grants the feat is probably the best way of handling it, it should be within the scope of Wish and it keeps fairly well to the spirit of the request.

[Dizlag]

Jasdoif: Hmm, replacing a feat with a new one is a good suggestion. There are rules in PHBII for refactoring a character when leveling up, however. Or are you saying I would just pick the old feat they will be replacing myself as a DM?

Krimm: I like your idea a lot as well about creating a magical item which bestows the feat when they are wearing it. It's certainly within the description of the wish spell to create a magical item. Hard part about that would be the material cost of such an item to reflect the range of power feats have related to one another. Hmmm.

Again, thanks for the suggestions! And keep them coming!

Dizlag

[Indon]

Arbitrarity: Yeah, it's a tough one to adjudicate because of the range of feats and their level of power. But like Gezina said, "Keen" is a +1 ability ... granted it's on a sword but not on a character. So, is "Mighty Cleaving" a +1 ability granting the wielder the cleave feat.

"I wish to gain the Cleave feat!"
*Transformed into intelligent weapon of Mighty Cleaving*

[bluish_wolf]

I think it would make sense that you would loose feats in exchange for the ones that you would be getting.

[BooBooSpooki]

Will this decision make your players happy without giving you a headache? I say aye then. :)

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif: Hmm, replacing a feat with a new one is a good suggestion. There are rules in PHBII for refactoring a character when leveling up, however. Or are you saying I would just pick the old feat they will be replacing myself as a DM?

Normally when a wish outside the listed safe effects is used, the DM chooses exactly what makes it happen. So you could decide yourself which feat to replace, or let the player decide which one.

And yes, there are retraining options, but you're adjudicating the effects of a wish spell. If you want to simply make the wish an instantaneous retraining, that's perfectly fine.

Keep in mind, the text on wish says exceeding the listed options is "dangerous" for a reason. Just because refactoring options exist doesn't mean wish is required to be better then they are. I mean, if you wanted to be cruel, you could replace one or two of their levels in sorceror/wizard/whatever-they-got-wish-through with levels of fighter, to give them a fighter bonus feat, and that would fulfill their wish. So to me, a nice option like a feat swap seems perfectly OK.

Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?

An argument could made either way, really.

But I would say that for that particular instance yes; you could reset all your spells known.

[Galahad]

Aren't there epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score? I dont have the Epic level handbook but i think i remember seeing them in there (i know they exist in Neverwinter Nights, tho thats not really proof either way)

If so, a wish spell can grant the equivalent of an epic feat through the stat bonuses. Just limit the number of feats and bonuses to a combined 5 like the spell already does.

[Dizlag]

ROFL, Indon! That example in itself would make my group crack up! Probably not the one wishing, but the rest of the group will laugh and point. Hahahaha!

Booboo: You nailed in on the head there. It would make my players happy, but I'm trying to get some feedback if the potential for migraines would increase because of it. Hehehe

What it comes down to is having fun at the gaming table. We won't have but 4 hours every other friday night to roleplay together because we all have families. Turning a player into a friggin' greatsword of mighty cleaving because they wished for the cleave feat would be SO mean! But so damn funny to everyone. Of course, I'd let them pay another 25K to have the wish reversed and done right costing about 75k - 100k gp. =)

[PinkysBrain]

How about just allowing custom magic items which can give a bonus feat? As long as you don't allow custom unslotted items or items with too many abilities per slot the limit on item slots available presents a flexible limit on the number of bonus feats they can get. The AEG suggested 10K was a reasonable price, but I'd probably price it at double that at least.

[Mewtarthio]

An argument could made either way, really.

But I would say that for that particular instance yes; you could reset all your spells known.

What's the other argument? It seems pretty explicit to me: 20 * 50 = 1000 XP.

Aren't there epic feats that grant a +1 to an ability score? I dont have the Epic level handbook but i think i remember seeing them in there (i know they exist in Neverwinter Nights, tho thats not really proof either way)

If so, a wish spell can grant the equivalent of an epic feat through the stat bonuses. Just limit the number of feats and bonuses to a combined 5 like the spell already does.

As I recall, the epic feats increase the ability score itself. Wish can just grant an inherent bonus, which can never go above +5. This means that the epic feat boost stacks with Tomes, Manuals, and Wishes.

[Aquillion]

Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?

I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things.)

Pity it doesn't let you change class, too. I like the idea of a level 20 psionic, in an emergency, spending 1000 xp to suddenly turn into an IotSV-wizard. Or, better yet, hire level 3 commoners, then Psychic Reformation them into useful grunt casters.

[Wolf53226]

First, I would make the player word it like their character would have to...that will remove most feats from being asked for. Out of character it is easy enough to ask for a feat, but how does someone ask to be able to get an extra attack when they kill something, in the same round (Cleave). When the character doesn't know what a "round" is. Now granted, the people in this forum, and probably your players could come up with something, but not just off the top of their head that would give them exactly what they want. Everything I have quickly thought up on how to word it could quite easily be perverted into something bad without splitting hairs on definitions.
That's right, NO Metagaming!

Beyond that, it all depends on the feat they want on if I would allow it or not.

[Mewtarthio]

I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things).

Actually, psionics-magic transparency works for everything except a few specific things (generally things that require the power point system to work properly, like Cascade Flu). Besides, the principle's the same.

[PinkysBrain]

I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells. (Remember, psionics-magic transparency only works for a few specific things.)

It also says "decisions of these sorts". If the DM is going to allow it in the first place he will probably allow it for spell selection too, the rules leave a little room for it in any case.

[Jack_Simth]

Waitwaitwait. Does that thing allow you to completely reset the spell selection of a level 20 Sorceror for a total of 1000XP?

If you invoke Magic/Psionics transparency, yes.

As an added bonus, if you invoke Magic/Psionics transparency twice, it is duplicateable via Limited Wish.

Do note that Psionics and Magic are different is a listed campaign varient, which your DM might just decide to invoke if you do this too often.

[Jasdoif]

What's the other argument? It seems pretty explicit to me: 20 * 50 = 1000 XP.

Well, like Aquillion said....

I think that by 'powers' it means psionic powers. So it lets you completely reset your power selections, skill points, and feats, yes, but, per RAW, not sorcerer spells.

The other argument would be centered around whether psionics-magic transparency should be allowed to apply given the differences in the systems.

I mean, a wizard gets new spells at each level and copies them into his spellbook, do they suddenly disappear if the wizard reforms the spells he learned from his last level? If not, there's a cost of 25XP per new spell (and the cerebremancer becomes a spellbook-filling money-making machine!)

For a sorceror, the question is one of comparing spells known at present level and determining the difference between spells known at an earlier level. There's also a chance for (admittedly paranoid) concern unless the character sheet lists which spells were learned at which level; since otherwise multiple low-cost uses could be used to replace all spells known of a particular level.

[PinkysBrain]

You don't have to rely on transparency, "decisions of these sorts" allows you to include a pretty wide array of leveling decisions based on how you interpret it regardless of transparency (somewhere between all of them and only those explicitly mentioned).

[Raum]

Since you get a feat every three levels and an ability increase every four, I'd say a feat is less valuable than the ability increases already allowed with a Wish spell. The most effective feats will probably be taken whether you allow Wish to grant one or not. It's the secondary option feats which will be opened up.

As some others did, I'd recomend it be allowed as long as the character qualifies for the feat. Just limit it to five as the ability increases are limited.

First, I would make the player word it like their character would have to...that will remove most feats from being asked for. Out of character it is easy enough to ask for a feat, but how does someone ask to be able to get an extra attack when they kill something, in the same round (Cleave). When the character doesn't know what a "round" is. Now granted, the people in this forum, and probably your players could come up with something, but not just off the top of their head that would give them exactly what they want. Everything I have quickly thought up on how to word it could quite easily be perverted into something bad without splitting hairs on definitions.
That's right, NO Metagaming!

It's usually not all that hard to word. With your example of Cleave it's just a matter of wishing for an immediate additional attack when your victim is dropped by one of your attacks. There are probably a few feats which are difficult to describe without metagame terms, but not all that many.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you allow this you should realize that you just gave wizards almost as many bonus feats as a fighter gets.

With 5 more feats I could do tons in different builds.

[Tor the Fallen]

However, if the request is simply "give me another feat", I see an easy (and not necessarily needlessly cruel) way to go about fulfilling that request:

Your Wish is granted.

[Talya]

Note that wish spells are voiced "in character."

What feats do you have? I mean personally, in real life? Character sheets have "feats" on them, but the personalities that those sheets represent have no inkling that they know certain "feats." You'd have to word the wish very differently, it's the character making the wish, not the player. And when wording it in a way that fits a character's knowledge, you leave all kinds of room to twist it.

[Fizban]

I would say yes, with one wish. And add a limit that the feat is considered an inherent bonus, and you can't have more than one feat gained through an inherent bonus. Additionally, this could be used to handle wishes such as "I wish my spells were more powerful", which would then grant spell focus in the school the caster uses most often.