WotC Website/Drow of the Underdark: Demonbinder

[Fax Celestis]

The Demonbinder is available on the WotC website. What do people think?

[illathid]

I like it. It adds some much needed versatility to the warlock and I like the mechanics behind it.

[jjpickar]

Damnation points? Well D&D never really was aimed at the church crowd anyway but this does seem a little...well...much.

[Fax Celestis]

Damnation points? Well D&D never really was aimed at the church crowd anyway but this does seem a little...well...much.

...you're binding DEMONS to your BODY. I'd say "damnation" points are a good choice here.

[geez3r]

I like the fluff and crunch behind the class, but I'll withhold an "official" judgment until I see it in action.

[magicwalker]

Seems like a binder knock-off. Though they can change demonbinds a lot easier than a binder can change vestiges.. I don't know if the bonuses are significant enough considering the already versatile warlock invocations.

[Person_Man]

1) Difficult Entry: Restricted to Chaotic Evil Warlocks of 5th level or higher

2) The Demonbind action is a full round action, which means it can't be done during the Surprise round, and the duration isn't long enough to do before most combats.

3) None of the Demonbind powers do anything new or interesting which can't be gained more efficiently with spells.

4) Screws your Eldritch Blast progression, which is already mediocre to begin with.

5) While the temporary hit points are nice, the PrC has d4 hit die, which sucks. Thus its likely that any Demonbinder build will be relatively fragile.

But it looks like some excellent feats are in the book, like Blend into Shadows, Clever Opportunist, Dutiful Guardian, Instinctive Darkness, Paralyzing Fists, and Staggering Critical.

[Fax Celestis]

See, I was thinking about a thri-kreen totemist/warlock/demonbinder, with potions of Girallon's blessing. Sudeenly, I have ten arms, all of which have natural attacks.

[Lemur]

The flavor is interesting, but the powers granted aren't something I'd consider being worth sacrificing my soul for. The damnation points system is interesting, but the actual demonbinds strike me as being kind of weak. You get temporary hit points, but you also have to deal with even smaller hit die than a normal warlock, so you're really in trouble if you're caught off guard.

Mainly, the class strikes me as something good for show. You go through a dramatic and obvious transformation that must be really impressive to see, but you're not really getting the power of a demon. For example, Balor doesn't give you anything special, unless you never took the flight invocation, yet it's supposed to be the ultimate bind? I think you could do a bit better than that.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I am very happy with all the sudden Warlock love.

[Person_Man]

See, I was thinking about a thri-kreen totemist/warlock/demonbinder, with potions of Girallon's blessing. Sudeenly, I have ten arms, all of which have natural attacks.

Hmm, possibly useful, definitely hilarious.

But between the LA, the levels levels of Warlock, and the levels of Demonbinder, your BAB and hit points would be garbage.

Sounds like a great idea for a BBEB though. Maybe throw in a few levels of Monk and then go into Kensai, so you can enchant all of your fists separately?

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm, possibly useful, definitely hilarious.

But between the LA, the levels levels of Warlock, and the levels of Demonbinder, your BAB and hit points would be garbage.

Sounds like a great idea for a BBEB though. Maybe throw in a few levels of Monk and then go into Kensai, so you can enchant all of your fists separately?

Yeah, or that feat that let you enchant your hands, in conjunction with an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[ImperiousLeader]

See, I was thinking about a thri-kreen totemist/warlock/demonbinder, with potions of Girallon's blessing. Sudeenly, I have ten arms, all of which have natural attacks.

Intriguing. How do you manage to be Thri-kreen and Drow, might I ask? Demonbinders are Drow only.

Obviously, between the race and alignment restrictions, it's not a PC-friendly prestige class, but I could definitely see myself throwing an NPC one at a party, and scare them. I like the sudden demon change when they bind.

Damnation points look a lot like the Factotum's Inspiration points, and this looks to be a mechanic we'll be seeing a lot more of in the future. Points to power class abilities that refresh on a per-encounter basis.

[Fax Celestis]

Ooh, good call.

Erm.

Half-drow template?

[goat]

Might be nice as an Enemy, but I can't see it being that good to play.

In those feats, master of poisons is nice, it makes poison in battle a more viable choice, and the guardian feats could be excellent for NPC bodyguards.

[Dausuul]

Hmm. I'm thinking... warlock 4, warblade 1, demonbinder 2, and warblade for the rest of the character's career.

If you put a 16 in Charisma, add the +2 from being a drow, and then put a +4 item on top of that, you get a +6 Charisma bonus. Add that to the 2 levels of demonbinder, and you get enough damnation points for the marilith bind. Six arms plus Multiweapon Fighting plus Tiger Claw plus Stormguard Warrior = much win... assuming you can figure out how to get a decent attack bonus so you can actually hit things.

Buying off the drow LA would also be highly important.

[Fizban]

Ditch the drow requirement, and I'd like it. Ditch the CE requirement as well and I would like more.

Doesn't extra levels of invocations grant eldritch blast damage?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Ditch the drow requirement, and I'd like it. Ditch the CE requirement as well and I would like more.

Doesn't extra levels of invocations grant eldritch blast damage?

Yes it does.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Dip class.

[Caelestion]

Ditch the drow requirement, and I'd like it. Ditch the CE requirement as well and I would like more.

Heh. So, just ditch all the fluff altogether then? Stupid designers, being so inconsiderate!

[AtomicKitKat]

The CE requirement I can see. I'd strip the Drow requirement myself.

The Damage Reduction isn't fantastic, but does make it trickier to bypass(You now need a Holy Avenger or similar Blessed+Cold Iron weapon to do full damage) The Immunities are nice, but far away. Otherwise, this would be a nice mix with Acolyte of the Skin.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Heh. So, just ditch all the fluff altogether then? Stupid designers, being so inconsiderate!

Considering that this class isn't even that good as a one-level dip (which is all it's really worth,) why would you be opposed to removing the requirements of playing a race that flat-out sucks and a totally linear alignment?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Heh. So, just ditch all the fluff altogether then? Stupid designers, being so inconsiderate!

It doesn't seem to me there's anything particularly drowish about binding the essenses of demons into you. Not all demonologists are drow, not all fiendbinders are drow, not all Nar Demonbinders are drow (I wonder if they thought of that name though, heh). I think anyone should be able to take this...Though I would keep the CE requirement.

[Caelestion]

Well maybe it's Drow-required, simply because it's a technique that only Lolth teaches. *shrug*

[Edo]

Let me say that warlocks need love.

I trade BAB, hit points, invocator level, and a slightly-expanded skill list for... the ability to get temporary hit points, modify my eldritch blast...

This is a two-level dip class. Buff your Cha enough and you'll eventually be able to demonbind mariliths for the extra eldritch blast.

Let me say again, warlocks need love.

[Caelestion]

So raise their skill points per level to 4 and invest in Battlecaster (Medium) and a chunky suit of mithril full plate :)

[AtomicKitKat]

I wonder...

Warlock 5
Demonbinder 1
Fang of Lolth 10
Add Demonbinder to taste(ie, how many times a day do you want to use the ability?)

Interestingly, the Marilith bind(Available with 24 Charisma+1 level) has the side-effect of turning your FoL arms into Primary arms(ie, full Strength Damage, etc.), with the extra Marilith arms being Secondary.

The BAB would stink though. 3 from Warlock, 7 from FoL, for 10 BAB at ECL 18.

[Fredricus]

In the end of the article there is how to adapt it to be player friendly.

Adaptation

Demonbinders are vile warlocks, utterly in thrall to the demons they bind. To make this class more useful to players, you could downplay some of darker elements to bring it more in line with other transformative prestige classes such as the dragon disciple (DMG 183) and the fiend-blooded (Heroes of Horror ). Replace the chaotic evil alignment requirement with any non-good. In addition, apply the following changes to the damnation ability described above.

Damnation (Su): You gain a number of damnation points equal to your Charisma modifier plus your class level. You use damnation points to power your demonbind ability. Spent damnation points return at a rate of 1 point per 5 rounds. You cannot spend damnation points when in the area of a consecrate, hallow, or magic circle against evil spell.

Damnation comes with a price. Whenever you use damnation points, you must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or gain one negative level. Negative levels gained in this way last for 1 minute. Evil characters are immune to this side effect.




So it looks like the made it as a fluff NPC PrC and not for players? Strange

[Caelestion]

So binding demons is acceptable as a lawful neutral act? The only warlock alignments that should qualify are CN (at a stretch), NE and CE.

[Matthew]

Intriguing. How do you manage to be Thri-kreen and Drow, might I ask? Demonbinders are Drow only.

Obviously, between the race and alignment restrictions, it's not a PC-friendly prestige class, but I could definitely see myself throwing an NPC one at a party, and scare them. I like the sudden demon change when they bind.

Damnation points look a lot like the Factotum's Inspiration points, and this looks to be a mechanic we'll be seeing a lot more of in the future. Points to power class abilities that refresh on a per-encounter basis.

Ooh, good call.

Erm.

Half-drow template?

In the end of the article there is how to adapt it to be player friendly.

Adaptation

Demonbinders are vile warlocks, utterly in thrall to the demons they bind. To make this class more useful to players, you could downplay some of darker elements to bring it more in line with other transformative prestige classes such as the dragon disciple (DMG 183) and the fiend-blooded (Heroes of Horror ). Replace the chaotic evil alignment requirement with any non-good. In addition, apply the following changes to the damnation ability described above.

Damnation (Su): You gain a number of damnation points equal to your Charisma modifier plus your class level. You use damnation points to power your demonbind ability. Spent damnation points return at a rate of 1 point per 5 rounds. You cannot spend damnation points when in the area of a consecrate, hallow, or magic circle against evil spell.

Damnation comes with a price. Whenever you use damnation points, you must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or gain one negative level. Negative levels gained in this way last for 1 minute. Evil characters are immune to this side effect.

So it looks like the made it as a fluff NPC PrC and not for players? Strange

Yeah, it looks suspiciously like this Prestige Class was not originally intended to be Drow only. The fluff appears to contradict the Entry Requirements:

Playing a Demonbinder

By becoming a demonbinder, you sacrifice your immortal soul for the instant power granted by the Abyss. You draw demonic agencies inside yourself, triggering a vile transformation that bestows not only a sampling of a fiend's power, but also a resemblance to that fiend. Constant exposure to these creatures leaves a stain on your soul so foul that no act of restitution will ever cleanse it.
For obvious reasons, most demonbinders find little acceptance in most civilized lands and are forced to make do in remote places: dark lands filled with goblinoids, giants, and other creatures that care little for the interests of one depraved mortal. This, however, is not the case with the drow. Thanks to Lolth's association with the Abyss, particularly with regard to her personal domain (the Demonweb Pits), female demonbinders are valued members of the Spider Queen's clergy. Called the Daughters of the Demon, they treat regularly with fiends. Lending special insights into the nature of demons, they aid priestesses in a particularly terrifying ritual -- one in which these otherworldly beings are called up to take part in depraved couplings, hoping to gain the favor of the Queen of Spiders.

I would hazard to say this Prestige Class was 'adapted' for Drow of the Underdark. Personally, I am not a big fan of the mechanics or fluff of this Prestige Class. The physical alterations are too plain and the mechanical advantages boring. There's a lot of potential in this idea, but I don't think that it lives up to expectations.