Fighters granted AC through competence? Ridiculous! [Feat]

[Deepblue706]

Disciplined Defense [General, Fighter]

Pre-Reqs: BAB 3+

Benefits: Whenever armed with a melee weapon you are proficient with, you are granted an AC bonus of +1. This bonus increases by +1 when armed with a weapon you have selected the Weapon Focus feat for, and an additional +1 for every other weapon-specific feat you posses with that same weapon selected (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus etc). Wielding multiple weapons does not cause this bonus to stack.

...thoughts?

[jindra34]

Disciplined Defense [General, Fighter]

Pre-Reqs: BAB 3+

Benefits: Whenever armed with a weapon you are proficient with, you are granted an AC bonus of +1. This bonus increases by +1 when armed with a weapon you have selected the Weapon Focus feat for, and an additional +1 for every other weapon-specific feat you posses with that same weapon selected (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization), barring Improved Critical. Wielding two weapons does not cause this bonus to stack.

...thoughts?

Drop the initial +1 make weapon focus required.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I disagree, I think it's fine as-is.

[bdh5533]

I would make the preq. = Combat Expertise

[pyrefiend]

I would make the preq. = Combat Expertise

I agree, the two feats are somewhat along the same lines.

[I_Got_This_Name]

I'd make it only apply to melee weapons. Being a competent archer doesn't help you defend yourself with a bow when an enemy gets in your face. Possibly only to melee attacks, too, but that might be too much of a nerf.

[paigeoliver]

A fighter/monk could get himself at least 9 points of armor class out of this, possibly more. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, Eagle Claw Attack, Flying Kick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Roundabout kick.

[Cybren]

I would make the preq. = Combat Expertise

I doubt think that it's necessarily something only a "smart" fighter would be capable of doing.


Also it reminds me of one of the feat varients on the boards a while back that had lots of feat types, and you gained better bonuses by having more feats of the same type.

Also i thought your computer was broken

[Zakama]

That might work. Some people think the fighter is weak, and I think that he is somewhat below par at low levels, but good at higher levels. (So... Many... Feats!...) This could make him better at the low levels.

[Maldraugedhen]

General opinion seems to be the reverse of what you outlined there, mainly because of how many ways the other classes are breaking the laws of physics and balance while the fighter just tosses one more feat on every other level.

[Fax Celestis]

Let's see: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery. +6 AC. Not bad.

[Deepblue706]

I'd make it only apply to melee weapons. Being a competent archer doesn't help you defend yourself with a bow when an enemy gets in your face. Possibly only to melee attacks, too, but that might be too much of a nerf.

Whoops! Yeah, that's what I intended it for. I'll adjust that now.

[Deepblue706]

I doubt think that it's necessarily something only a "smart" fighter would be capable of doing.


Also it reminds me of one of the feat varients on the boards a while back that had lots of feat types, and you gained better bonuses by having more feats of the same type.

Also i thought your computer was broken

My computer IS broken. I'm using someone else's. And when I say someone else's, I mean I've been using a computer lab.

[Deepblue706]

I would make the preq. = Combat Expertise

The point of this is that it's "disciplined", not "smart". I think it's ridiculous that the only defensive options for a warrior-type are Wear Armor / Use Shield, Fight Defensively, Full Defense, or being smart enough to get Combat Expertise.

I firmly believe all warrior-types (especially Fighters) need a lot more in the defensive department. I mean, the first rule of combat is being able to defend yourself - if you can't do that, then you're pretty screwed (unless for some reason you don't suffer wounds, or something). Through "Focusing" and "Specializing" in a specific weapon, I think one would develop superior technique in being able to divert blows, and therefore this powers-up with more feats (things only gained through level-ups, and level-ups are granted from experience..).

The feat is designed to accomplish this, and also make things like Weapon Focus a little nicer to take.

[bdh5533]

+ ac for being good with your weapon would require a bit more intelligence in when to swing and when not to swing from my thought, expertise is there to keep fighters alive vs melee/archers. power attack is there to kill things quickly. discipline comes from the player, knowing when to fight defensive and when to attack all out is all about you.

I think it is unbalancing and not with the flavor of the game to have a fighter with all the focus/specialties, power attack, cleave, great cleave etc etc. and then have the +AC from all of those. (granted i don't like playing games out side of what you can find in the SRD.)

but it's your own campaign, do what you like. I think you will find a melee clr/fighter2 will have insane AC bonuses.

[ExHunterEmerald]

Why do I only ever see these feats when it's a core-only game?
Nice all the same, though.
Why bar improved critical? Part of being able to land a decisive strike includes holding back until the opening is presented.

[Deepblue706]

+ ac for being good with your weapon would require a bit more intelligence in when to swing and when not to swing from my thought, expertise is there to keep fighters alive vs melee/archers. power attack is there to kill things quickly. discipline comes from the player, knowing when to fight defensive and when to attack all out is all about you.

I think it is unbalancing and not with the flavor of the game to have a fighter with all the focus/specialties, power attack, cleave, great cleave etc etc. and then have the +AC from all of those. (granted i don't like playing games out side of what you can find in the SRD.)

but it's your own campaign, do what you like. I think you will find a melee clr/fighter2 will have insane AC bonuses.

"A bit more intelligence"? Sure, being smart can help you out. That doesn't mean a less smart person shouldn't be able to get to the same point with proper training.

Let's look at a basic level 1 Fighter, elite array:
STR 15
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8

+1 to AC from DEX, maybe +4 from something like Scalemail. Another +1 or +2 if he decides to grab a shield.

And that's it?

DEX is something completely raw. All player characters get the full benefit of having a high DEX unless wearing armor that prohibits it.

Now, the fundamentals of combat involve proper defense of oneself. So, A Barbarian may not be so skilled in defense as a Fighter in a game where a feat like this exists, simply because the Fighter is a disciplined combatant, whereas a Barbarian kinda gets mad and smashes things. Barbarian gets less feats, and therefore can't make too much use of this. To me, this fits right into the theme.

Also, uh...the Fighter only gets AC bonuses from feats that are weapon specific and not Improved Critical. Please, re-read my feat.

Also, I doubt the Cleric / Fighter will have insane AC bonuses...since you DO have to keep taking these weapon specific feats.

Weapon Specialization requires Fighter level 4th.

yeah...and...I'm pretty sure the greater ones need more levels of Fighter too.

yeah....

[Deepblue706]

Why do I only ever see these feats when it's a core-only game?
Nice all the same, though.
Why bar improved critical? Part of being able to land a decisive strike includes holding back until the opening is presented.

Well, Improved Critical strikes me as something that focuses too much on striking a gap in an enemy's defense and whatnot - it just doesn't seem appropriate to me.

[Triaxx]

I like it, it gives them a dueling flavor. You never see a movie character that can't deflect sword blows, and occasionally arrows with his sword.

[Maldraugedhen]

But Improved Critical, as you say, shows the ability of one to identify holes in the opponent's guard. With a bit of insight, such as that granted by this feat, one would also be able to identify those same holes in one's own guard.

[bdh5533]

okay defense based on discipline, i think we would all agree that it takes restraint to have discipline, and it takes common sense or inteligence to show restraint. therefore, i propose a slight modification to my original recomendation of making the prerequisite combat expertise.

Prereq. = combat expertise mod with 13 wis or 13 int required to take it. (maybe even reduce these numbers)

honestly i think discipline in this game comes from the player. knowing when to fight defensively and when not to also depends on your roleplaying of your character.

now if you want to have a separate feat that gives AC based on weapon skill i would make it something like:

Weapon Expertise

Preq. weapon focus

You are exceptionally good with your weapon of choice, you gain an AC bonus equal to your BaB minus contribution from strength and class levels.

so in the above anything that increases your BaB that is not from strength and class levels gives you a bonus to your AC. (weapon focus weapon specialization etc etc) *note a person with 18 dex 14 str and weapon finesse gains +2 to AC since the BaB is 4 from from 18 dex rather than 2 from the 14 str.

[Cybren]

Allowing it to work with improved critical would make improved critical a little more attractive to take.

[Harkone]

I combined the idea of an AC bonus for fighters presented here with a new attempt on my part to encourage PC's to use light and one-handed weapons (the previous idea for the last 2 years of my games has been the Defense Bonus, floating around this forum somewhere); as we all know no Fighter in his right mind will use anything but a two-handed weapon when using the RAW, so something must be done both to encourage diversity and raise the AC of the average all-to-easy-to-hit Fighter.

Anyway, see how this feat measures up to the ideas presented above that inspired it:

New Feat: Weapon Defense [General, Fighter]

Pre-Requisites: Base Attack Bonus+2

Benefits:
--Whenever armed with one or two one-handed melee weapons you are proficient with, you gain a +1 defense bonus to your AC against all melee attacks. This bonus does not apply to your touch AC or your flat-footed AC.

--When wielding a weapon for which you have selected any of the following feats, the bonus increases by an additional +1 per feat: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization.

--If wielding one or two light weapons, the bonus is further increased by 1, but not if wielding both a light weapon and a one-handed weapon.

--Wielding two weapons does not cause this bonus to stack.

[ExHunterEmerald]

It also occurs to me a part of defense is attacking, and in doing so, preventing your enemy from attacking.
Your call, of course, but I think it wouldn't be a game or logic breaker.

[Deepblue706]

okay defense based on discipline, i think we would all agree that it takes restraint to have discipline, and it takes common sense or inteligence to show restraint. therefore, i propose a slight modification to my original recomendation of making the prerequisite combat expertise.

Prereq. = combat expertise mod with 13 wis or 13 int required to take it. (maybe even reduce these numbers)

honestly i think discipline in this game comes from the player. knowing when to fight defensively and when not to also depends on your roleplaying of your character.

now if you want to have a separate feat that gives AC based on weapon skill i would make it something like:

Weapon Expertise

Preq. weapon focus

You are exceptionally good with your weapon of choice, you gain an AC bonus equal to your BaB minus contribution from strength and class levels.

so in the above anything that increases your BaB that is not from strength and class levels gives you a bonus to your AC. (weapon focus weapon specialization etc etc) *note a person with 18 dex 14 str and weapon finesse gains +2 to AC since the BaB is 4 from from 18 dex rather than 2 from the 14 str.

What?

No.

I'm not adding ability prerequisites to this. Individuals with above-average intellect aren't the only ones who can use a weapon properly.

@Maldy

Yeah, okay. I'll add Improved Critical.

@Harkone

Two-Weapon Defense already gives bonuses for having two weapons. I don't think that's fair game...

[Maldraugedhen]

Heh, that's a new abbreviation. Lessee, Mal-dude, Mald, Maldahugahug, Ma-whateverf#ckit... yeah, this name's had a lot of variants.

I think AC should still increase by two if you are wielding a one-handed and a light weapon, mainly because of the amount of versatility you can get with a combination of blade lengths. There's a reason it was one of the big disciplines of fencing (blade & dagger), and not just that people kept daggers on them. You could also just make it so you can parry with your offhand weapon instead of attacking with it--give a bonus to AC from that...

[jlousivy]

off hand dagger for defence --> two weapon defence, if you want more than +1 ac, get a defending dagger.
a light weapon may be agile enough, but it doesnt' really help you parry a big ol' axe more than a +1

[Harkone]

It's not necessarily about parrying; it's more about mobility (think of the old Weapon Speeds from 1st Edition). In theory, a light weapon allows you to maneuver about with relative ease, while a two-handed weapon has alot of recovery time with each swing, putting the wielder off-balance; a one-handed weapon falls somewhere in between. Hence the Weapon Defense bonus is slightly better for a light weapon.

[Theodoxus]

It's not necessarily about parrying; it's more about mobility (think of the old Weapon Speeds from 1st Edition). In theory, a light weapon allows you to maneuver about with relative ease, while a two-handed weapon has alot of recovery time with each swing, putting the wielder off-balance; a one-handed weapon falls somewhere in between. Hence the Weapon Defense bonus is slightly better for a light weapon.

And that's why in 3.5, THF beats any other combination, hands down. If weapon speed had been included, such that weilding a honkin' big axe or an anime-ginormous sword caused you to attack last, be unable to react to opponents maneuvering around you (bye-bye AoOs) etc, there'd be a lot fewer people using it - or at least a lot more consideration would go into what weapon combo a particular character is going to use, instead of instantly deciding "Power Attack and Great Sword, again".

As for the feat - seems like there are a lot of newer feats dealing with this kind of situation. Overall, it certainly isn't game breaking. It adds a bit of flair and the fluff makes sense. I give it an A- overall.

Theo

[Cybren]

It's not necessarily about parrying; it's more about mobility (think of the old Weapon Speeds from 1st Edition). In theory, a light weapon allows you to maneuver about with relative ease, while a two-handed weapon has alot of recovery time with each swing, putting the wielder off-balance; a one-handed weapon falls somewhere in between. Hence the Weapon Defense bonus is slightly better for a light weapon.

Well it is about parrying. It's about having a weapon ready to parry as your main weapon is too clumsy to parry-riposte.