Druids, Overpowered?

[doliemaster]

I have got to get this off my chest. I have a druid player in my campaign and he generaly slaughters 25-30 enemy's with his higher level spells and it is p***ing me off. The whole reason the game fell apart, in my opinon was that A. I was inexperienced, B. He thanks to some interparty arrangements became more powered. C. One guy kept losing his sheets.
Who agrees or has druid horror stories?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

They're part of the core power three. Full casters are all overpowered without much need for tweaking. Though druids are perhaps the easiest of the casters to wield.

[Innis Cabal]

class's arnt overpowered....DM's are to lax

[Starsinger]

"Foolish girl! I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"

While I've never personally seen a Cheese druid, I don't doubt their existence for a moment.

[JaronK]

class's arnt overpowered....DM's are to lax

Wrong. Druids are simply very strong by comparison, especially in core only games.

I find that the strictest DMs tend to be the ones that make the most unbalanced games.

That said, any Druid is going to be strong if played at all intelligently.

JaronK

[Innis Cabal]

and i obviously disagree, i have played lots of games with druids that have not been overpowered in the slightest. There has to be a happy medium in a game, and when there isnt we get threads like these

[Hamster_Ninja]

Druids are quite insane. With the ability to change into a form and get its physical ability scores, they are just as good warriors as fighters/barbarians/etc. and they can do it without having to spend money to improve their scores, leaving them more money to spend improving their fullcaster-ness.

[TheOOB]

class's arnt overpowered....DM's are to lax

That statements going to need a little more backing it up to be fully credible.

Druids are usually considered one of the most powerful classes in the game. Think of it like this, druids get full spellcasting, up to 9th level spells. They have single spells that are better then any ability non casters get, and instead of only getting an ability every level or two, they get lots and lots of spells, not only that, they don't really need any feats are equiptment to be any good at these abilities, heck wisdoms really the only stat they need anyways.

As if thats not enough, preperation spellcasters (and especially druids), can change their abilities every day. When a fighter picks a feat they are stuck with it, but a druid can change their spells prepared every single day, and if their spell arn't enough, well they can just change into a big mean animal and fight better then a fighter.

[The_Snark]

class's arnt overpowered....DM's are to lax

Eh, maybe. But I will say that the high-level druid is truly fearsome. Wild Shape makes them capable in melee, sometimes better than capable, and only a few levels after getting it they can pretty much stay in it as much as they like.

They've got a good array of spells in the core books, discounting polymorph spells; if Complete Divine or, better yet, the Spell Compendium is allowed, they become truly fearsome. Even if you don't ever use wild shape, they're very good.

[the_tick_rules]

i'm of the opinion it's more the skill of the player than the class.

[TheOOB]

i'm of the opinion it's more the skill of the player than the class.

That is an important factor, but the fact remains that 9/10 times a wizard, cleric, or druid played by a competent player will be vastly superior to a fighter, rogue, barbarian, ranger, other non spellcaster played by an expert player.

Skill matters to a point, but when you start with better materials, you're likely to make a better product.

[asqwasqw]

i'm of the opinion it's more the skill of the player than the class.

If all the players are the same skill, the druid will still be better (unless the players suck, in which case the druid may suck...)

[AmoDman]

I'd still rather play a Cleric.

[the_tick_rules]

well it's also important to remember the classes were designed to work together to beat monsters. there's a reason all D&D parties aren't all wizard,druids, and sorcerers all the time. there are ocassions where the fighter,monk, and rogue prove their worth.

[geez3r]

It all depends on the player. A class could have every statistical advantage on paper, but if its not brought to the table, it makes no difference. True druids are really powerful, you'll get no argument from me on that front. It's all a matter of what the player does, and what the other players do. Every class has the potential to break the game (granted some are easier to pull off than others), but not every player does.

[Fax Celestis]

The problem with the Wiz/Clr/Dru set is that poorly played versions of those classes are still better than well-played versions of the Ftr/Barb/Rgr set.

[Orzel]

Druids are top tier class wise. They can help in almost every situation a group will face. With players of decent skill, they will be at the top of the group. Only when the players are a true newbie to the game can the druid be outperfromed by a lot. Druids are top tier with the other full casters, followed by partil and scroll casters with high skill points (who try to mimic the full casters).

[The_Snark]

Druid spells are very all-encompassing; they include buffs, damage and other types of attack spells, and a lot of utility spells, many of which still have combat uses.

The thing is, it's really, really easy to make a powerful druid. None of your spell choices are permanent; eventually, you're going to start realizing what spells are useful and start preparing them. Even poor stat and feat choices won't hamper you that much, since wild shaping will still make you good in combat. A fighter, on the other hand, is easily made mediocre, and often can't recover very well.

[Dhavaer]

The problem with the Wiz/Clr/Dru set is that poorly played versions of those classes are still better than well-played versions of the Ftr/Barb/Rgr set.

I'd argue a fireball-obsessed Evoker/Red Wizard who bans Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation would be equal or inferior to a Leap Attack Barbarian. It doesn't stretch believability too far either, although it is pushing it.

[JaronK]

well it's also important to remember the classes were designed to work together to beat monsters. there's a reason all D&D parties aren't all wizard,druids, and sorcerers all the time. there are ocassions where the fighter,monk, and rogue prove their worth.

See, that's the thing. A druid can Wild Shape into something nasty (Legendary Ape, for example) and fight way better than the Fighter could ever dream of fighting. The monk... well he can't do anything except not die and run fast, so he isn't doing anything special either. The rogue can trap find, but that's all he can do... Wizards open locks better than rogues, and summoned critters can handle traps.

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

and summoned critters can handle traps.

Someone found a trap heavy pre-made adventure and ran the numbers. It's apparently safer to have the barbarian run down all the hallways and set off the traps rather than have the rogue search for them.

[JaronK]

Someone found a trap heavy pre-made adventure and ran the numbers. It's apparently safer to have the barbarian run down all the hallways and set off the traps rather than have the rogue search for them.

If you've ever done some of the really old adventures, the traps are intensely leathal and often can't be found by searching. As a result, it really is best to just summon something expendable and have it handle things, instead of the rogue.

Binders actually do this best by binding Malphas and using their free summoned bird to trigger anything nasty, since they can summon it at will an unlimited number of times without penalty.

JaronK

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If you've ever done some of the really old adventures, the traps are intensely leathal and often can't be found by searching. As a result, it really is best to just summon something expendable and have it handle things, instead of the rogue.

Binders actually do this best by binding Malphas and using their free summoned bird to trigger anything nasty, since they can summon it at will an unlimited number of times without penalty.

The ironic thing is, there's precedent for this in one of the world's older myths.

DM: "As you watch from the deck of the Argo, the ship before you is crushed by the two cliffs moving together!"

JAson: "Ooookay.... I'll get that bird to fly in first."

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi everyone,

I dare jump in again and say as Innis Cabal (albeit in more detail): druids are not overpowered in core. Likely some ill-fortuned circumstances led to a mess in doliemaster's campaign, but if the class is properly handled, with properly balanced other pcs as envisionend in the rules and DMed in such a way, a druid should not be a problem. Powerful and cool to play, yes, but no fun-spoiler or campaign disruptor.

Let's take a closer look at the weaknesses/drawbacks of a druid's powers.
- wildshape. This is a really great ability, but it lures the druid too often (if he goes beyond using it for uitillty, say fly and dive in water, or occasional fights) into melee fights. Melee fighting, however, is the least effective route in combat, after ranged spells (best are area control, or no-saves here) and ranged combat (archery etc). Reason? You get hurt more easily!
The problem with wildshape is also that, unlike for a cleric with his divine power might, the no. of attacks for a druid remain weak even in wildshape AND most of the more powerful animals do not have that high DEX scores (meaning you will not go first in combat, a great disadvantage in high-level play, in particular vs enemy casters and ranged fighters).
Add to this that you can no longer communicate with your fellow adventurers and are limited in your equipment, and you should handle wildshape with a bit more caution.
Ah, and in higher-level play you are capped by HD15 animals and if you run into an antimagic field opponent while in melee (more often than you think at those levels!), you are toast.
- spells: the druid spell list is the weakest of all full casters, in exchange for the various extra powers and highest skill points of all full casters (non counting the bard). They also often have blaster (elemental) combat spells which are considered among the weakest combat spells on these boards and none of the most powerful spells (MMM, MoP, Foresight, Miracle, Wish, holy word, time stop, gate). Shapechange they do get at 17th level, but that one spell is, likewise, not free of problems since they need to be "familiar" with the creatures they turn into and thus, since they have no knowledge skills except on nature, do not get the nicer monsters (dragons, outsiders, aberrations like the choker).
- preparing spells everyday. Interestingly, this has been considered an advantage of druids further up. Of course, it is a disadvantage when compared to the spontaneous casters since once they have learned the spells, they are stuck with them for the day (the may leave open some slots to learn later). Plus: If they are attacked during recovering the spells, or if they have prepared the wrong spells, they are as useful as the npc expert class with specialisation in some nature skills.
- Animal Companion:
Remember the old first edition cartoon strips where some villains threaten a wizard's familiar: "Don't move wizard, or your familiar gets it!".
Well, this also highlights the vulnerability of a druid through his animal companion, although more at a fluff level. Mechanically, at all times except maybe at the low levels, the animal companion is highly at risk since all challenges are made for the character levels, not the comparatively weaker animal companion. And since it takes the druid 24 (!) hours of UNINTERRUPTED prayer to get another animal companion once his former one is lost, a killed animal companion during the adventure likely cannot be recovered during that adventure; and if the druid has powerful enemies at a higher level, they may even harass him enough (just 1 round distraction in the 24-hr prayer suffices) to prevent a new animal companion for a while.
- Ex-druids. Now this section is overlooked as often as that for the clerics. For druids, it's even worse, since they lose their class abilites even when someone dominates/tricks them into teaching druidic language to someone else. Remember: fighters and rogues may be stuck with their feats/skills for life, but they never risk losing their feats. Ever. Not even from Antimagic fields...

- Giacomo

[NullAshton]

Actually... both clerics and druids can't leave a 'blank cheque' for spells. Their spells MUST all be prepared in the morning, and at a specific time to boot. And if for some reason they can't prepare their spells during that specific hour, that has to be the same time for the rest of their life(barring changing gods or some such thing)...

[Saph]

Hi everyone,

I dare jump in again and say as Innis Cabal (albeit in more detail): druids are not overpowered in core.

Mmm . . . sorry, but no. I agree with what you said right afterwards, that it doesn't have to unbalance or spoil the game, but druids are extremely strong. I'd even say they're the strongest class in the game at the mid-levels.

Here's why.

I started playing in a World's Largest Dungeon game a couple of months ago. It was a core-only game. The rest of the party was a rogue, a sorcerer, a fighter, a barbarian, and a cleric. The DM told me at the start that the WLD book recommended against playing druids in the WLD, since they "wouldn't do very well in the artificial environment". I said I'd take my chances. :)

My druid started off at 3rd-level, one level behind the rest of the party. Here he is at 6th-level.

Ran Saneseph

6th-level Druid

Stats

Str: 11 (0)
Dex: 12 (+1)
Con: 16 (+3)
Int: 11 (0)
Wis: 18 (+4)
Cha: 8 (-1)

(4d6 stat roll generation. I got a decent set of rolls. Starting Wis of 17, put it up to 18 at level 4.)

HP: 55
Init: +1
AC: 16 (+3 armour, +2 shield, +1 dex)
Attacks: Unarmed

(I have almost no equipment. The WLD is a lousy place for finding druid stuff, but then, I don't really need any. I don't bother wielding a weapon anymore, for reasons I'll go into later.)

Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Track, Natural Spell
Class Features: Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape 2/day
Spells per Day: 5/4/4/3
Skills: Concentration, Listen, and Spot all at +12.
Lots of other stuff that doesn't matter very much.

Animal Companion - Dusty (War-trained riding dog)

HD 6d8+12 (39 HP), Speed 40, AC 21, Bite +8 (1d6+4), trip on hit, various feats, skills, and tricks.

Summoned Creatures

(This is where the real power comes from. I'm only including the top choices from each tier to save on space, so bear in mind that this list doesn't include the dire badger, crocodile, and flying creatures that I also use.)

Level 1 - Wolf. 17 HP, Speed 50, AC 14, bite +5 (1d6+3), trip on hit
Level 2 - Black bear. 25 HP, Speed 40, AC 13, 2 claws +8 (1d4+6), bite +3 (1d6+3)
Level 3 - Dire wolf. 57 HP, Speed 50, AC 14, bite +13 (1d8+13), trip on hit
Level 3 (alternate) - Lion. 42 HP, Speed 40, AC 15, 2 claws +9 (1d4+7), bite +4 (1d8+3), pounce, improved grab, 2 rakes +9 (1d4+3)

Wild Shape Forms

Black bear - As above. Str 18, three natural attacks.
Leopard - Str 16, Dex 19, up to five natural attacks on pounce, improved grab.
Crocodile - Str 19, swim, improved grab.

Tactics

Round 1 - Start summoning a creature. Dusty stands in front of me and readies an action to attack anything that comes near.
Round 2 - Summoned creature(s) appears next to enemy and full attacks it. Dusty continues guarding me. I start summoning a second creature.
Round 3 - Second summoned creature appears next to enemy and full attacks it. First summoned creature stays next to enemy and full attacks it. Dusty moves up and attacks as well.

By this point the enemy, whatever it is, is taking between five and nine attacks per round just from my animals. Usually the fight's all but over by now. On the rare occasions where it isn't, I'll use wild shape and move in myself, adding another 1-5 natural attacks to the mix. Unless the enemies are overwhelmingly powerful or have some way of completely evading attacks, they will die horribly. Damage reduction won't help, because one of my animals will grapple it and the rest will rip it to pieces while it's helpless. And bear in mind that I can do this three times a day.

Outside of combat, I have the highest Listen and Spot scores in the party, I can heal, and I can summon animals to set off traps (the WLD is littered with them). Then there are all my utility spells, like spider climb and stone shape.

So far, we've only had two battles where I was in any serious danger. The first was where we were fighting an entire army of goblins (a gray render, several spellcasters, some mutated hammer-using aberration goblins, and about fifty 1st- and 2nd-level goblin warriors) and the second was when we were going up against an army of ghoul/deathknight undead things that respawned every time we killed them. In both cases the CR was at least 4 points about our party level, and we still won due to the amount of damage my animals could deal and soak up.

Three points to remember:

1 - This is CORE ONLY. I'm not using anything not from the PHB or Monster Manual.
2 - I wasn't particularly trying to make my druid overpowered when I created him. The feat choices were just the obvious ones from the PHB, all picked in 5 minutes.
3 - This is all with no equipment whatsoever.

Conclusion? Yes, druids are way overpowered. In our battles, I control about as many figures and do almost as much damage as the rest of my party put together, and I'm just as effective out of combat. We do need all that combat power, since the WLD is a really lethal place, but there's no doubt that my class is a good deal stronger than it should be.

Oh, and whoever said that druids don't do well in unnatural environments . . . was a little off base. :)

- Saph

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi Saph,

your druid looks like a solid character to me, but what are the other characters at lvl 6 doing?
A fighting class could have 3 attacks with a bow by now, doing already 3d8+15 or more at range/round.
A melee barbarian could already power attack/cleave also quite nicely with, say a STR 18, getting already 2d6+20 damage per hit (and still have better attack bonuses than your critters).
A cleric is not yet as powerful as he'll be later, but may also join you in summoning stuff (they get similarly powerful creatures) while being protected by the barbarian or fighter.
The sorcerer could have haste (also making your critters more powerful, but really kicking in the archery batteries to four/round...), some ray spells, web, illusions.

As for your opponents- they obviously do not attack you yet at range, neither with dispels, nor with missile attacks to thwart your spellcasting. Summonings are great, but take 1 round for effect, which may be survived in lower level play, but is quite disadvantageous at higher level play.

Animals summoned are also worse than outsiders summoned (by, say, the cleric), since they are subject to various stuff like shying away from fire, mind-affecting, being easily fooled by illusions etc. They are good, though, for sniffing out invisible foes with scent (also works nicely in darkness, although the animal may get some penalities if it is not used to the dark). Plus, like all summoned creatures, they can be dispelled.

But I agree: including the animal companion and summons, you can quite readily sway a combat to your side with sheer numbers if you are unopposed. Also, I like the idea of shaping into a leopard since that is one of the rare animals with a high DEX.

- Giacomo

[Marius]

Hi Saph,

your druid looks like a solid character to me, but what are the other characters at lvl 6 doing?
A fighting class could have 3 attacks with a bow by now, doing already 3d8+15 or more at range/round.
A melee barbarian could already power attack/cleave also quite nicely with, say a STR 18, getting already 2d6+20 damage per hit (and still have better attack bonuses than your critters).
A cleric is not yet as powerful as he'll be later, but may also join you in summoning stuff (they get similarly powerful creatures) while being protected by the barbarian or fighter.
The sorcerer could have haste (also making your critters more powerful, but really kicking in the archery batteries to four/round...), some ray spells, web, illusions.

As for your opponents- they obviously do not attack you yet at range, neither with dispels, nor with missile attacks to thwart your spellcasting. Summonings are great, but take 1 round for effect, which may be survived in lower level play, but is quite disadvantageous at higher level play.

Animals summoned are also worse than outsiders summoned (by, say, the cleric), since they are subject to various stuff like shying away from fire, mind-affecting, being easily fooled by illusions etc. They are good, though, for sniffing out invisible foes with scent (also works nicely in darkness, although the animal may get some penalities if it is not used to the dark). Plus, like all summoned creatures, they can be dispelled.

But I agree: including the animal companion and summons, you can quite readily sway a combat to your side with sheer numbers if you are unopposed. Also, I like the idea of shaping into a leopard since that is one of the rare animals with a high DEX.

- Giacomo

But the druid while wildshaped can be just as good as the fighter or the barbarian in melee and he still has an animal companion to help him (flank anyone?) just as many skill points in several skills AND he's a full caster. He can heal, summon, buff and use utility spells. What can the fighter do besides combat? They can do everything melee classes do and much much more.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah...Marius, my old nemesis...we meet again

But the druid while wildshaped can be just as good as the fighter or the barbarian in melee and he still has an animal companion to help him (flank anyone?) just as many skill points in several skills AND he's a full caster. He can heal, summon, buff and use utility spells. What can the fighter do besides combat? They can do everything melee classes do and much much more.

Heal, summon, buff and utility spells all go to the druid (plus skill points and skills!), you're correct. And to balance that, they pay the price with the drawbacks I outlined above.
But in combat, they are worse, as they should be. Changing into an animal (at 6th level even capped to small and medium animals) does not change that. The druid does not even have the cleric divine power spell to get on equal terms with BAB (let alone feats), and Saph's druid wisely chose not to zilla, but to focus on spells (conjuration in this respect). Even if she had zillaed, it would not be a good idea, since the druid is dependent on melee for this, with the various problems I outlined above.

Now in combat...when compared to an archer fighter, the druid, even with her summoned animals, will have much less damage output than the fighter, I daresay, in particular at that level where mass buffs may not be that frequent (haste comes to mind, though). The comparison to the melee barbarian is even worse (who is then inferior to the fighter in other aspects to balance it).
The fighter has 3 attacks, all with much higher attack bonus than the animals (key in the fight vs the BBEG), and can always full attack (while the animals may be tactically inferior in melee combat, may trade only 1 attack per round vs intelligent opponents). Plus, the summoned creatuers need time to get to the combat; time which the party at some times may not have. Do not get me wrong: the summoned animals should be useful, but will likely only contribute to combat like everyone else does.

- Giacomo

[Marius]

Heal, summon, buff and utility spells all go to the druid (plus skill points and skills!), you're correct. And to balance that, they pay the price with the drawbacks I outlined above.

The problem is that those "drawbacks" don't balance the druid power at all. Other classes are still weaker than the druid, the fighter can't even heal himself, it's completely unskilled, is more vunerable to magic, has worse saves and can only deal damage at range (at that level if you build him to be good at range he'll suck at melee and in a dungeon sometimes melee is not an option) and even his AC won't be higher than the druid AC (if he's a ranged fighter) in time the druid will buy a monk's belt to send his ac through the roof.
The druid can fly or swim if he has to and even cast spider climb or longstrider to have greater mobility. He can scout while wildshaped (or not) pretty well and he'll have the highest spot and listen checks. He can also track better than the ranger or the barbarian (and his animal companion can help him too since he probably has scent.
Wild empathy means that he can avoid fights with animals and even magic beasts.
He can use sponteneus summon natural ally spells and with the Augment Summoning feat they can be fearsome. A dire wolf has a strengh of 29 so if he hits you, he trips you and if one grapples you, you are done for (with what is the fighter going to hit them?).
Oh yes, druids can heal with skill or magic or items (a wand of CLW paid by the party and you don't have to spend slots in cure spells.). Plus all those other useful spells like "lesser restoration", etc. But if they don't want to spend slots in them, they can just buy scrolls.
They also have good buffs like "bull's strengh" or "Cat's grace", Protection from energy", etc. if they know what is comming.
Plus several utility spells, like "speak with animals", "stone shape", "Obscuring mist", etc.
What does the fighter have? He does damage. You really think that your drawback balance any of this?

But in combat, they are worse, as they should be. Changing into an animal (at 6th level even capped to small and medium animals) does not change that. The druid does not even have the cleric divine power spell to get on equal terms with BAB (let alone feats), and Saph's druid wisely chose not to zilla, but to focus on spells (conjuration in this respect). Even if she had zillaed, it would not be a good idea, since the druid is dependent on melee for this, with the various problems I outlined above.

But a zilla druid doesn't fight alone, he has his animal companion and summoned creatures. Of course he won't fight unless he has too, but if he has he can hold his own, in Leopard form he has 3 natural attacks, pounce and improved grab (and a good speed) and rake. His animal companion has improved trip (for free in every hit). So they do have feats.

Now in combat...when compared to an archer fighter, the druid, even with her summoned animals, will have much less damage output than the fighter, I daresay, in particular at that level where mass buffs may not be that frequent (haste comes to mind, though). The comparison to the melee barbarian is even worse (who is then inferior to the fighter in other aspects to balance it).

At level 6 haste is already an option. And it's after level 5 when druids start to be really overpowered.

The fighter has 3 attacks, all with much higher attack bonus than the animals (key in the fight vs the BBEG), and can always full attack (while the animals may be tactically inferior in melee combat, may trade only 1 attack per round vs intelligent opponents). Plus, the summoned creatuers need time to get to the combat; time which the party at some times may not have. Do not get me wrong: the summoned animals should be useful, but will likely only contribute to combat like everyone else does.

- Giacomo

The fighter has 3 attacks IF he's a ranged fighter, and maybe he won't be able to do anything if the BBEG has low level mooks running around you (or he's a spellcaster with wind wall), or he has cover, etc.). The druid in leopard form and his animal companion have 6 attacks, improved grab and improved trip, with pounce he can do 5 attacks and he can even cast if he has to.
The druid can take one round to summon and move, while his animal companion guards him. The next round the summon, the druid and his animal companion can attack for 9 attacks! Even if he has a high AC some attack will get though with high chances that the victim ends up grappled or tripped.
This is at level 6! As you level up the gap increases. At 7 level you get 4th level spells (Reincarnate, Dispel magic, Scying, Flame Strike). At 8th level you can wildshape in large animals. At 9th level you get 5th level spells and you start getting save or die spells like Baleful Polymorph.