Sai's and Disarming

[Dizlag]

Hey all,

I've been putting together a monk character who wields a sai for disarming. Per RAW, if you're trying to disarm an opponent with a light weapon you incur a -4 penalty to your opposed attack roll. And per RAW, a sai grants you a +4 to your opposed attack roll. A sai is a light weapon, so it would seem it just cancels out the disarming penalty while wielding a light weapon. My question to you all is this the intent of the combination of the two rules? Or did they overlook something here?

Thanks,

Dizlag

[Armads]

They just made sais on par with other weapons when trying to disarm. I think it's just to make monks decent at disarming things (because all the other monk weapons, including unarmed strikes suffer light weapon penalties too).

[JaronK]

Except for the Quarterstaff, which can be used two handed.

JaronK

[Armads]

Quarterstaves can't be used to disarm, though.

[Attilargh]

Er, yes they can. Any weapon can be used to disarm.

And, for the record, a club is a one-handed weapon that has neither a bonus nor a penalty to disarming.

[Laurellien]

Take a large Sai.

[Quietus]

Because you'd like to have an attack penalty, with an MAD class that has 3/4 BAB, when making opposed attack rolls.

[Matthew]

It certainly is the intent of the Rule. As I understand it, this penalty also applies to the opponent's Opposed Roll, so if you are both using Light Weapons, then you have a net +4 Bonus to Disarm.

[Indon]

Take a large Sai.

And wield it in two hands so it gets an additional +4.

[OzymandiasVolt]

It would still be sized wrong and thus bestow a penalty.

[Indon]

It would still be sized wrong and thus bestow a penalty.

For a total positive modifier of +6 (+4 for 2-handed, +4 Sai bonus, -2 one size step off).

And, of course, if you're disarming you probably have improved Disarm, which I do believe brings the total for disarming to +10.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Get a three sectioned staff...

Unless you wanted a Sai using character. You'll still be able to do stuff even if you're not getting the bonus you werer promised.

[Person_Man]

Because Disarm attempts are opposed attack rolls, Monks are quite bad at it. They have mediocre BAB and serious MAD issues.

However, Monks are quite good at Stunning Fist (and its big brother, Freezing the Lifeblood). A Stunned character drops everything held, can't take actions, has a -2 AC, and loses his Dex bonus to AC. So its the most effective way to Disarm anyone.

Sai are jokes. They threw them in as an afterthought, without thinking through the Disarm mechanic. Forget about them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Sai are jokes. They threw them in as an afterthought, without thinking through the Disarm mechanic. Forget about them.

Unless he wants to use a Sai for visual reasons.

Or does everyone have to use a Scythe for x4 crit despite the fact that they look silly most of the time.

I would ask your DM to houserule a decent Sai. Otherwise get a Three-sectioned staff, a monk still needs to take a feat to get proficiency it but they can flurry with it an it's a two-handed weapon in addition so you get extra damage and a bonus to disarm. I remembered it getting a disarm bonus but I was confusing it with a heavy flail (despite their being almost identicle, but DnD already has Sickle and Kama as seperate and other screwed up stuff just in the PHB).

[ArmorArmadillo]

Because Disarm attempts are opposed attack rolls, Monks are quite bad at it. They have mediocre BAB and serious MAD issues.

However, Monks are quite good at Stunning Fist (and its big brother, Freezing the Lifeblood). A Stunned character drops everything held, can't take actions, has a -2 AC, and loses his Dex bonus to AC. So its the most effective way to Disarm anyone.

Sai are jokes. They threw them in as an afterthought, without thinking through the Disarm mechanic. Forget about them.

Good point, but I'm still a hold-out Raphael fan, so...

Triad Thunder [Weapon Style]
When you snap a weapon out of an opponent's hand, you snap the hand with it.
Pre-Requisites: Weapon Proficiency (Sai), Weapon Focus (Sai), Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
Benefit: You gain an additional +4 on Disarm attempts made with a Sai. Additionally, whenever you succeed on a Disarm attempt with a Sai, your opponent must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10+Wisdom Modifier) or take an immediate 1d4 points of Dex damage.

P.S. I just realized I don't know what MAD stands for.

[Armads]

Multiple ability disorder. Monks depend on Str, Dex, Con, Wis to be used effectively.

[Corolinth]

Most monsters are on the same BAB table as monks.

[my_evil_twin]

Most monsters are on the same BAB table as monks.

But most monsters also have hit dice exceeding their CR, and most melee monsters have superhuman strength, so you need some bonuses if you want to do much disarming.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Multiple ability disorder. Monks depend on Str, Dex, Con, Wis to be used effectively.

Ah, thanks.

[Quietus]

But most monsters also have hit dice exceeding their CR, and most melee monsters have superhuman strength, so you need some bonuses if you want to do much disarming.

Easy. SLashing weapon + wrists.

After all, a lot of monsters have natural attacks.

I'd just ask my DM to make sais a one-handed weapon that can't be two-handed, instead of a light weapon. With that and Improved Disarm, that'll help a great deal.

[Kami2awa]

As a martial artist I think its ridiculous if monk's cant disarm very well. Disarming techniques are important in ju-jitsu, one of the the oldest arts.

[Quietus]

As a martial artist I think its ridiculous if monk's cant disarm very well. Disarming techniques are important in ju-jitsu, one of the the oldest arts.

How often, in ju-jitsu, do you try to disarm someone of a halberd/greatsword/scythe, though? I imagine that ju-jitsu is probably more useful against, say, someone else who's practicing ju-jitsu, and using the same (likely light/unarmed) weapons you are.

[Closet_Skeleton]

How often, in ju-jitsu, do you try to disarm someone of a halberd/greatsword/scythe, though? I imagine that ju-jitsu is probably more useful against, say, someone else who's practicing ju-jitsu, and using the same (likely light/unarmed) weapons you are.

Modern Judo only teaches how to deal with unarmed opponents. Jujitsu is just Japanese for grappling techniques and can involve disarming weapons that people actually use, such as spears, halberds an swords. Jijitsu is designed to fight opponents in full armour wielding proper weapons and was later adapted for self defence and sporting purposes in the past 150 years.

[Kami2awa]

How often, in ju-jitsu, do you try to disarm someone of a halberd/greatsword/scythe, though? I imagine that ju-jitsu is probably more useful against, say, someone else who's practicing ju-jitsu, and using the same (likely light/unarmed) weapons you are.

No not at all. Closet skeleton is right. Ju-Jitsu is an art based mainly on throwing and joint locking. This martial art (at least as practiced by the British JJ Association) is always unarmed, but the grading syllabus includes many techniques to be used against an armed attacker. These almost always include a disarm as part of the technique or as part of the finish (i.e. after a throw).

This form of Ju-Jitsu is rarely used against another martial artist. In general, we practice techniques as used against conventional attacks (a sword thrust, a roundhouse punch, etc.) There are also counters to techniques which form part of the syllabus but there is very little sparring, jitsu-against-jitsu combat.

Admittedly, we don't often practice defences against a greatsword, halberd or scythe, though sword defences are widely practiced at higher belt grades. At lower grade, the range of weapons typically used concentrates on those likely to be encountered in modern self-defence situations, such as broken bottles or knives. A monk in the D&D world would undoubtably learn techniques for use against european medieval weapons.

[TheThan]

I’d rule that the sai’s disarm bonus negates the negative it takes for being a light weapon. That makes the most sense. So the roll would look like this:

(Attack bonus) -4 (light weapon penalty) +4 (sai disarm bonus)= result


natuarly this isn't taking into account size, improved disarm and a few other factors. But I think you'll get the idea.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Sai are jokes. They threw them in as an afterthought, without thinking through the Disarm mechanic. Forget about them.

I would instead propose to houserule sais to have a +6 to disarm attempts (+8 if twin sais are being used)

[ArmorArmadillo]

How often, in ju-jitsu, do you try to disarm someone of a halberd/greatsword/scythe, though? I imagine that ju-jitsu is probably more useful against, say, someone else who's practicing ju-jitsu, and using the same (likely light/unarmed) weapons you are.

I'm inclined to question why it's so much harder to disarm these weapons...
They are heavy, yes, but they also have a lot of momentum to be used against the the wielder.
Also, if you go to the hands directly (wrist locks, disrupting the grip) it shouldn't matter what you're holding, and in fact, if you can't grip correctly, a heavy weapon should fall right out of your hands.

[Gygaxphobia]

No not at all. Closet skeleton is right. Ju-Jitsu is an art based mainly on throwing and joint locking. This martial art (at least as practiced by the British JJ Association) is always unarmed, but the grading syllabus includes many techniques to be used against an armed attacker. These almost always include a disarm as part of the technique or as part of the finish (i.e. after a throw).

I agree with you, but in terms of system mechanics how often is an unarmed disarm a stand-alone seperate technique?
It certainly isn't in ju-jitsu (or any unarmed martial art I've studied), whereas if you look at fencing (any school or sword) or other weapon schools (Escrima being a good example) then weapon vs weapon techniques are very different.

Basically the discussion isn't about unarmed disarming, which is an entirely seperate (and much more complex/dangerous) topic.

[Person_Man]

MAD stands for Multiple Attribute Dependence. A Monk needs high Str for damage and To-Hit, high Dex for AC, high Con for hit points, and high Wis for AC and Stunning Fist. A regular melee build only needs high Str, 14-16 Dex (depending upon the max AC bonus of their armor), and high Con, and thus its more likely that they'll mathematically better.

There is no such thing as using a weapon for visual reasons in D&D. You can use all the mechanics of a greatsword and picture yourself attacking with two sai. There are no graphics in D&D. Just your imagination.

If for whatever reasons you are wedded to using the rules for a sai, you can still use them in each hand but make unarmed attacks. Monks can hold anything and do that. So again, just imagine yourself fighting with and disarming your enemy with two sai, but roll the dice and resolve effects using unarmed attacks and Stunning Fist.

Or, as lots of people have suggested, just talk to your DM about a house rule. Monks are weak. Sai are weak. And using attacks to Disarm is a really poor tactic. So if you want to be really good at three really poor things and you were playing in my campaign, I'd be happy to give you a +8 to Disarm.