Sorceror specialist school?

[Erk]

Is there any logical reason sorcerors can't choose a specialist school? It seems to be implied strongly that it's not allowed but this distinction seems absurd to me.

I would allow sorcerors to choose specialist schools exactly as per wizard, but rather than gaining a bonus spell/day they instead know one bonus spell/level of their specialist school. Or would both of those be appropriate given that sorcerors ... well, really need the leg up to say the least. Wizards already get bonus feats and more class skills, unlimited spells, no serious difference in spells/day, and get a more useful stat as their casting stat. Sorcerors are awesome of course, but ... yeah.

Thoughts? Does this add an edge I am not thinking of? Because it seems more like a rules omission than a logical exception to me.

[Dhavaer]

It's not RAW, but it'd make a decent houserule.

[Latronis]

It's fluff

Sorcerers always have some kind of magical background, They don't study magic, wizards do. Hence a wizard can specialise.

[Erk]

Specialisation fluff text, at least on the srd (don't have my PHB handy atm) doesn't imply that specialisation is the result of increased study in a particular field at the cost of not studying another. In fact, if anything, specialisation rules contradict that: the fact that specialising in a school results in barred school(s) indicates it isn't a scholastic difference, otherwise a specialist wizard could still cast barred school spells (at a penalty since the wizard didn't study them too well and so is less competant). Since the barred school is totally barred, there is clearly a magical restriction of some kind beyond just study.

In other words, specialisation is presently written more as a talent than as a learned skill. Specialist sorcerors would therefore be sorcerors for whom a particular school always came exceptionally easily, while other schools proved inaccessible to the sorceror's untrained natural talents. I'd say that actually makes more sense for sorcerors than the given rule does for wizards, now that I think about it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

The game reason why they can't specialize in a school is because their spell selection is already so limited. For a wizard, losing an entire school means a lot of spells that can't be added to the spellbook, for a sorcerer it just means not choosing the spells you already were not going to choose.

[Harkone]

In my campaigns I've always allowed Sorcerers to specialize, if they so chose. I figure it can reflect whatever bloodline gave them their abilities (it doesn't always have to be dragons, after all). We had a set of bloodlines, rather than schools of magic, that determined what kinds of "specialist" one could be. These included ideas like Fey, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Infernal, Celestial, Elemental (Fire, Water, Air, or Earth), Acidic, "Magic," Shapeshifter, Poison, etc. It was pretty broad (see the Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines for ideas).

I allowed them to know an extra spell per spell level (from an approved "bloodline"-themed list), as well as cast the extra specialist spell per day. It never seemed to adversely affect game balance. So I say go for it.

Edit: However, ArmorArmadillo has a good point about the barred schools issue. I think the "bloodline" concept helps to make up for this by really limiting the choices for the extra spells known.

[Erk]

ArmorArmadillo:
That, too, I thought about. It's a more valid point (although I say sorcerors are already far more penalised anyway), but sorcerors still get enough spell choices that barring a school is a substantial penalty. I can't think of any two schools I could bar that contain no spells I would palpably feel the loss of. At least that is my opinion. That point does make more sense, though, and probably explains why sorcerors don't have specialisation in the SRD.

[TheOOB]

Well, sorcerers don't get specialty schools because they dont lose a great deal. Sorcerers only know a few spells every level, not even one of each school, thus its not that big of a deal if you cant pick a school, the varient only makes sorcerers more powerful.

Which, given, sorcerers arn't near the power level of wizards/clerics/druids, but you dont have to be at that powerful level to be an extreamly powerful class now do you.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I like the Bloodline bonus known spell option as there are usually only a few gem spells and the others are ocassionally useful (moreso with a creative player) but not optimized or unbalancing.

Using standard wizard specialization rules can work.

Mechanically you could use the UA Battle Sorcerer option and apply one of the UA Domain Mage variants.

The sorcerer would now get D8, Good BAB, Light armor proficiency with No ASF in light armor and choice of a hand held weapon.

Daily spell casting wouldn't change but the sorcerer would gain two known spells at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12........ (1 would always be the fixed domain spell as a known spell and one of the two known spells at level 1 would be a domain spell).

[Erk]

Mike: interestingly enough, that is almost exactly what I am doing, since I am also using Battle Sorceror already. For the campaign I am playing a sorc in anyway... for my own campaign sorcerors are a lot different, as are wizards (wiz's are much more reliant on their spellbooks, for example). All the spellcasters have their own distinct, important weaknesses and strengths based around the RAW ones but exaggerated. But that is a story for another day. I like the idea of using Domain instead of Specialist since the choices are much more limited and therefore less minmaxy.

[Kurobara]

I can at least say that giving specialist sorcerers an extra spell known each spell level (or even each class level) at least probably wouldn't be unbalanced... Favored Soul is basically a divine (so no ASF) sorcerer with a d8 hit die, medium armor proficiency, and three more spells known per spell level, and they're still considered underpowered, IIRC.

EDIT: No, not three. Where is my head today? More like one or maybe two, I don't have Complete Divine around at the moment to compare with the PHB.

[Ramza00]

In my campaigns I've always allowed Sorcerers to specialize, if they so chose. I figure it can reflect whatever bloodline gave them their abilities (it doesn't always have to be dragons, after all). We had a set of bloodlines, rather than schools of magic, that determined what kinds of "specialist" one could be. These included ideas like Fey, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Infernal, Celestial, Elemental (Fire, Water, Air, or Earth), Acidic, "Magic," Shapeshifter, Poison, etc. It was pretty broad (see the Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines for ideas).

I allowed them to know an extra spell per spell level (from an approved "bloodline"-themed list), as well as cast the extra specialist spell per day. It never seemed to adversely affect game balance. So I say go for it.

Edit: However, ArmorArmadillo has a good point about the barred schools issue. I think the "bloodline" concept helps to make up for this by really limiting the choices for the extra spells known.

I was going to suggest something very similar. Have the DM create the bloodline list not the player. The bloodline is based off the character theme/origin/whatever.

Perhaps allow the bloodline to be identical to the spell list from a domain, even if these spells have spells a sorcerer can't cast. They won't get the benefit from the domain though. Though you can access the benefit from a feat (which wouldn't be unbalanced since the planar touchstone feat with the Catalogues of Enlightenment gives the benefit of the domain for the price of a feat.)

[Harkone]

I was going to suggest something very similar. Have the DM create the bloodline list not the player. The bloodline is based off the character theme/origin/whatever.

Yeah, the key is to have the DM create the bloodline spell list. It definitely limits what could otherwise be too huge a benefit to a school-specialist sorcerer.

[Latronis]

There is no fluff text in the SRD

I cant access my core books either (as they were misplaced during a move, i think the box fell off the back of the ute)

But i distinctly remember it mentioning choosing to focus in a school, and the small bonuses support that, but now that i think about it that might have been from an earlier edition, AD&D 2nd perhaps.. happens when you get old sometimes

[Zherog]

I had an article in Dragon 330 that created some alternate rules to allow sorcerers to specialize. They didn't specialize in a school like a wizard, though. Instead they had "spheres" which were groups of related spells (such as fire). These spheres could cross school boundaries, and every sphere has an opposite - cold, for example, is the opposite of fire. The sorcerer gets bonuses for any spell that falls within his sphere, and take penalties to spells in his opposed sphere.

[Erk]

I had an article in Dragon 330 that created some alternate rules to allow sorcerers to specialize. They didn't specialize in a school like a wizard, though. Instead they had "spheres" which were groups of related spells (such as fire). These spheres could cross school boundaries, and every sphere has an opposite - cold, for example, is the opposite of fire. The sorcerer gets bonuses for any spell that falls within his sphere, and take penalties to spells in his opposed sphere.

:p I am pretty opposed to anything encouraging sorcerors to be even more straight blasters, and I get the impression that's what this would encourage.

I'm whipping up some domains as described, mostly focusing on spells sorcerors don't choose on their own because of limited use. That prevents the extra spell from overpumping the sorc class (and prevents the player from minmaxing school choices) but allows sorcerors a bit more flavour and versatility. For example, how many sorcerors take some of the more fun divination spells? In my experience, few... those spells are fun and a sorc forced to take something nonglamorous like Telepathic Bond would probably find use for it. With only 6-7 spells per level tops, that one spell comprises 15% of their repertoire so I bet with some of the weirder spell choices I'll see some amusing and creative use of esoteric magic.

What can you do with Floating Disk? We're about to find out...

[Merlin the Tuna]

There are two ways to "specialize" a Sorc. The first is to use a different class. The Warmage (CArc) covers a lot of Evocation with a bit of Conjuration and a pinch of some others on the side. The Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) has a lot of Necromancy (not sure on a lot of the other details there). The Beguiler (PHB 2) has a lot of Enchantment and Illusion with a pinch of Divination. All three have class abilities that enhance their specific focus - blasting, zombie-ing, and mind-screwing, as well. They're pretty well done, and work great when placed aside a regular Wizard (or when used in an Ultimate Magus build).

Alternatively, check out the preview for Complete Champion, which has a variant allowing Sorcerers access to a Domain.

[Erk]

There are two ways to "specialize" a Sorc. The first is to use a different class. The Warmage (CArc) covers a lot of Evocation with a bit of Conjuration and a pinch of some others on the side. The Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) has a lot of Necromancy (not sure on a lot of the other details there). The Beguiler (PHB 2) has a lot of Enchantment and Illusion with a pinch of Divination. All three have class abilities that enhance their specific focus - blasting, zombie-ing, and mind-screwing, as well. They're pretty well done, and work great when placed aside a regular Wizard (or when used in an Ultimate Magus build).

Those are all really cool, but I am trying to make sorcs themselves more versatile and in line with the other casters (I am also nerfing the other casters slightly) without trying to use another class altogether. Same as wanting to fix fighter without just saying "use warblade!"

Alternatively, check out the preview for Complete Champion, which has a variant allowing Sorcerers access to a Domain.

That sounds cool, checking it out.

The original reason I asked this (besides for my homebrew) was because my Battle Sorceror character in another GM's campaign wanted to specialise. Feedback in this thread has helped him solve that problem (he has access to 1 bonus divination spell per spell level, GM approved, and cannot access necromantic spells or certain blaster spells). Thanks folks :)

[Zherog]

:p I am pretty opposed to anything encouraging sorcerors to be even more straight blasters, and I get the impression that's what this would encourage.

I'd recommend you track down the article and give it a read, then, because it'll "pump" up any style of sorcerer you want to play - blaster, battle control, diviner, whatever.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I really like the Draconic heritage feats in the Dragon but issue #330 with the magical spell circles was pretty lame IMO.

The PC had a magical ancestor and it basically suggested giving him or her something like a +1CL to certain types of circle spells with a -2 CL to the opposing circle type spells: Light versus Dark spells. Acid versus earth spells. No extra known spells for taking a circle plus the player and the DM had to flesh the spell circle lists out.

The author seemed unfamiliar with the class citing taking a cirlce element like Cold or Water which would oppose Fire circles and making the example that the sorcerer level 5 would now be unable to take the Fireball spell until level 7(Mechanically he should have used 6 and 8 unless taking the Draconic Rite of Passage Feat).

One of the best mechanically from reviewing the issue was probably using Conjuration (Summoning) with Conjuration (Creation) opposed for a sorcerer. (Normally you would think something like Abjuration or even Necromancy would oppose Conjuration)