Creating Devine Metacheese

[warmachine]

I wish to create a 9th level Cleric with that name that exemplifies how a cleric can outshine a fighter. Yes, the name is a deliberate pun. No, I will not play it - it is a joke to shock my gaming group. I am aware that any DM would ban or nerf the character on sight. Yes, I am sick. I will probably use 25 point buy and put it online.

I don't have all the expansion books but I believe the clerical abuse is based around Extended Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic, Nightsticks and Extra Turning that grant +4 turning attempts and draining turning uses to effectively run permanent Divine Might spells and the like. Two gods in the Forgotten Realms cosmos grant the Undeath domain but I'm stuck in the Greyhawk cosmos.

I would be grateful for additional feats and equipment from official books that make a cleric a better fighter than in the hands of a Fighter. Please summarise the effects and which book it comes from. Nothing too expensive as wealth-by-level guidelines apply.

Hopefully, I can get someone, preferably the DM, to swear loudly and claim, incorrectly, that I cheated with chargen. It might trigger a wholesale banning of various books but I don't mind.

[Jasdoif]

You really need Persistant Spell to do that? Consider these:


Divine Power gives you a fighter's BAB, a temporary hit point per caster level (which emulates the fighter's hit die with your cleric hit dice), and a +6 enhancement bonus to strength. Basically you're a stronger fighter who can cast spells too.

Divine Favor gives you a luck bonus to your attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. At level 9, this is a +3 bonus to each.

Righteous Might increases your size (increasing your reach), gives you a size bonus to Strength and Constitution, gives a bonus to AC, adds some damage reduction....


These are all core, all can only affect yourself, and their various bonuses stack.

[AmberVael]

But Jasdoif, if he uses Divine Metamagic he can have all those spells on all day long.
So what is better, your guy or a guy with that permanently?

[Toliudar]

Those three spells are indeed among the favourites to Divine Metamagic persistent. Because if they're good for a few minutes, having them on all day (without having to use actions to cast them at the start of a situation, especially when the fight has been an unexpected one) makes them great. Or broken, depending on how you look at it.

Even if Wee Jas isn't listed as having the Undeath domain, it wouldn't be hard to get it house-ruled in, since she walks the good/evil divide.

Is it death ward you're after with the Undeath domain? Because at 9th level, the Travel domain is a GREAT one for a melee cleric. Move faster (Longstrider), and nothing gets between you and your target (Teleport and persistent Fly).

Sanctified Strike (I think) Feat from BoED will give your attacks the Good descriptor and bonus damage against evil and especially undead.

[Jasdoif]

So what is better, your guy or a guy with that permanently?

I dunno, eighteen turning attempts in a day might be tough to pull off for a 9th level character....I suppose persisting only Divine Power would do the trick.

But considering the intent here, I'm highly amused by the thought that the only book that could be banned to prevent it is the PHB

[AmberVael]

I dunno, eighteen turning attempts in a day might be tough to pull off for a 9th level character....I suppose persisting only Divine Power would do the trick.

But considering the intent here, I'm highly amused by the thought that the only book that could be banned to prevent it is the PHB

True enough, true enough.

[JaronK]

Well, Nightsticks make getting enough turning attempts downright trivial.

Don't forget to persist Lesser Mass Vigor so you can handle healing for the party without actually casting anything.

JaronK

[ZeroNumerous]

Instead of bothering with healing a party(or even having a party) make a Neutral Evil Cleric who worships War and Death. As such, pick your two Domains as the War Domain and the Deathbound Domain. Now pick up a bunch of black onyxes. You now control 3HD of undead per caster level. Ontop of that, Deathbound has some nifty spells you can use. Bite of the Vampire King is always nice when you've got Divine Power persisted. Pick up Undead Leadership at 6th level. You're now your own party.

[Talya]

But considering the intent here, I'm highly amused by the thought that the only book that could be banned to prevent it is the PHB

Woah, Divine metacheese is PHB? Where is it? I can't find it SRD...

[ZeroNumerous]

The point was more that, sadly, those three spells destroy the point of Fighter. And they're in the PHB.

[Talya]

The point was more that, sadly, those three spells destroy the point of Fighter. And they're in the PHB.

Which book has divine metamagic and persistant spell? CDiv?

[ZeroNumerous]

Divine Metamagic is from Complete Divine, but I believe Persistant Spell is in Complete Arcane, though I could be wrong.

[Starbuck_II]

Divine Metamagic is from Complete Divine, but I believe Persistant Spell is in Complete Arcane, though I could be wrong.

Nope you are right.
And Libris Mortis has Nightstacks: "the Duracels of the Gods."
Since Extra Turning stacks ( Nightsticks do too).

[Jasdoif]

Divine Metamagic is from Complete Divine, but I believe Persistant Spell is in Complete Arcane, though I could be wrong.

Yep. Persistant Spell is also in the SRD, but limited to deities there.

( Nightsticks do too).

If you rewrite nightsticks to say they grant a bonus Extra Turning feat, and/or you overlook the general rule that non-instantaneous magical effects from the same source don't stack with themselves which nightsticks don't state an exception to, sure.

[PirateMonk]

But considering the intent here, I'm highly amused by the thought that the only book that could be banned to prevent it is the PHB

Banning the PHB sounds like a good idea to me.

[ZeroNumerous]

Banning the PHB sounds like a good idea to me.

Sadly.. It's the best balancing factor you can put into 3.5.

[Douglas]

As I recall, the standard domains for a Divine Metacheese Persistent Spell Cleric are Undeath and Planning, for the bonus feats they give - Extra Turning and Extend Spell. As noted above, a Greyhawk Cleric could get these domains by the simple expedient of not following a specific deity.

A human Cleric 9 has five general feats, only two of which are required in addition to the domain bonuses to get Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). To Persist the classic three buffs of Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Divine Favor, you will need 21 turn attempts. So far, you get 3 (base) + 4 (Extra Turning) + 2 (Eagle's Splendor*) = 9, assuming 10 charisma. If you put your remaining 3 feats into Extra Turning as well, that gets you the full 21 right there with no need for Nightsticks at all.

Two Nightsticks then gives you 8 more, enough to Persist Mass Lesser Vigor as well, letting you heal the entire party back to full all day long without spending any actions or additional spell slots to do it in addition to outfighting the Fighter. If your DM rules that multiple Nightsticks don't stack 16 base charisma can replace one of them, but that puts a considerable dent in your available points for other ability scores.

* Yes, temporary bonuses to charisma do give additional turning attempts, as long as you use them while the bonus is still in effect. This is covered explicitly in the official FAQ.

Edit: To add further to the craziness, use Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to negate the need to spend anything on enhancement bonuses beyond +1 (required to put any specials on). Divine Persistent Spell is not required for these as they have a base duration of 1 hour/level. Get a Bead of Karma from the Strand of Prayer Beads to increase the bonuses by 1 if your budget allows it (doubtful considering it's over 50% of the recommended Wealth By Level for level 9).

[Arbitrarity]

Use the pre-errata cost of the bead of Karma alone on a strand of prayer beads.

25800 gp -9000 gp -16800 gp...



Even madder, if you ever play at 15'th level, use an incantatrix

[warmachine]

Your advise has been pure gold, people, pure gold.

My intention was to create a replacement PC that could fit into one of the campaigns I'm in and, thus, had to conform to offical and campaign rules and not look like I cheated on dice rolls. Except for the fact that's it's broken, of course. I tried to use as few expansion books as possible, used 25 point buy, used average HP dice and wealth-by-level guideline with max quarter for any single item. I also like to write backstories, especially to explain a deityless cleric's choice of domains.

I have one character with Nightsticks and one without. I still need to buy all the miscellaneous gear I insist on having but it should now be viewable.

Devine Metacheese with Nightsticks

Devine Metacheese without Nightsticks

I'm quite pleased. For without Nightsticks, attack +17/+12 damage 2d6+8+d6 fire is nasty. With Nightsticks, attack +16/+11 damage 3d6+11+d6 cold with Power Attack, Cleave and 24/7 Fast Heal 1 for self and 3 allies is just fricking hideous.

[Douglas]

No Divine Favor? That would add another +3 to both attack and damage and stacks with almost everything, including all the other cleric buffs. Also, Greater Magic Weapon at your level gives +2 even without a Bead of Karma, so you can use that to bump attack and damage up another point (no need for turning attempts for this buff, it lasts an hour/level without them).

Edit: Also, you have the money for a +1 animated shield. Get that and use Magic Vestment to bump it up to +2.

Longsword proficiency is not worth a domain slot, especially when the extra feats from Undeath and Planning instead give you enough turning attempts to add Divine Favor to the mix.

[warmachine]

24 hour Divine Favour would also be hilarous but I can only afford 3 persistent spells, so I decided to diversify. At the end of battle, I don't need to burn spells to heal myself, the 2 melee fighters or the rogue. More spells for me! I can be a rules abuser and still be a team player.

I should have pointed out the the 'without' version is the second presentation when the DM promptly bans Nightsticks and making up your own clerical cause or the non-core domains. It'll show an abuse even with campaign authorised books (Core, PHBII and Complete only) and keeping to campaign environment (non-evil PCs and Core Greyhawk gods). It'll be a straightforward design and backstory, much like my current cleric, except broken persistence. I have a warped sense of humour.

[Douglas]

Ah. Ok, the without nightsticks version is about as good as you can get without spending one of your precious higher level spells/day on a mere extra +1 from Greater Magic Weapon. With nightsticks, however, should ditch Greatsword Proficiency and Cleave for Extra Turning to add Divine Favor. The extra damage of a greatsword over a morningstar or spear (for example) is only 3.5 at large size, a pitiful half a point over the bonus of Divine Favor. In exchange for this .5 average damage and a lower crit range, you gain +3 on attack rolls (put into power attack, that's +6 damage vs +.5 damage) and either two damage types for piercing DR instead of one or a x3 crit multiplier. Cleave isn't likely to make much of a difference in the fights where it would actually matter, so don't worry about that.

Edit: Also, the additional Extra Turnings would give you one more turn attempt than you need from them, letting you drop charisma to 8 and spend those 2 points elsewhere.

[greenknight]

If you really want to show the power of a Cleric, dump the Good and War Domains. Good is nearly useless, since all the Domain spells are already on the Cleric's spell list and the +1 bonus to caster level doesn't make much difference. War is fool's gold, because you can't choose the weapon proficiency you get and with the exception of the top level spells (which can be good, but aren't really that great compared to the standard Cleric spells you can use), all the spells are also on the Cleric list.

The best PHB Domains are Luck, Magic, Travel and Trickery. If you use the Spell Compendium, add Celerity, Charm, Fate and Time to the list. Personally, I'd take Magic and Time, but just about any combo from those 8 is a winner.

Here's another bit of cheese you don't seem to have considered yet - Polymorph Any Object. Get an NPC spellcaster to cast the spell (which costs 1,200gp) and hit the books to see which of the allowed forms buffs you up the most. If you stay with Medium size and same or lower Intelligence, the change should be Permanent in duration. A quick look through the SRD showed that Gargoyle might be an interesting choice, since you'd have faster movement (including flight), and a boost to Dexterity and Constitution. Your Intelligence would take a hit, but that shouldn't be too important. If you want to go with a more temporary change (lasting up to 2 weeks, if it's Extended), you can ignore the size requirement and go with more powerful forms like Troll. Just make sure whatever form you take can fit where you're going, can speak (so you can still cast spells with a Verbal component) and has human-like hands (again, for spellcasting, although that also allows you to make use of your manufactured weapons). And make sure your armor and weapons are appropriately sized for whichever Polymorph form you end up taking.

BTW, some people will tell you the change introduced in PHBII (the Polymorph subschool) will prevent you from casting spells while Polymorphed. This is untrue. Polymorph Any Object is based on Polymorph, which is based on Alter Self. Alter Self specifically allows spellcasting, and as is stated a couple of times in the wording of the Polymorph subschool, a spell's existing rules text overrides what is written in the subschool. In fact, the existance of the Polymorph subschool makes almost no difference to Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object or Shapechange.

[warmachine]

You people are really delivering the goods. However, I've discovered another abuse.

For the 'with Nightstick' version, Weapon Proficiency and Cleave gets dropped for 2 Extra Turning to persist Lesser Holy Transformation (Spell Compendium). The DM has allowed that book.

Cheesier and cheesier. Lose Cleave and d6 damage to acquire Outsider(good) (making weapons good), +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 saves, 60ft Darkvision, 40ft flying (60ft slowed by armour) and Speak Celestial.

A character that looks like and can damage like a good creature, despite being neutral and has what is essentially an evil domain. This concept must be banned for so many reasons.

[VariaVespasa]

Remember that dispel magic will bone you right quick, and should be a common enemy spell, especially against someone who is obviously buffed (the righteous might). One successful dispel will render you puny and pathetic and is the cure for metacheese. From the cheeser point of view I recommend buying as many rings of counterspells are you can stand and load them up with dispel magic (and later some with greater dispel magic). Always ALWAYS wear at least one (one of each later on) and switch them out for fresh ones if and as they get discharged.

[Ragna]

One simple cheesy combo:
Step 1: Cast persistenced Greater Consumptive Field
Step 2: Walk above an anthill
Step 3: Begin breathing radioactive fire and stomp buildings

Enjoy

[TheOOB]

Just remember the golden rules, just because it's in a core rulebook doesn't mean the DM has to allow it.

[warmachine]

Now that work has eased off, I finally completed the Devine Metacheeses and created a third one. All used 25 point buy, average HP, Wealth-by-level guidelines with no item worth more than one-quarter wealth limit.

With Nightsticks
Without Nightsticks
With undead turning remaining

The first is as obscene and shocking as I can make it. Large, +20/+15 attack, 2d6+16+d6 fire damage + good, AC 20, DR 3/evil, 81 HP, 40ft flying, plenty of Cleric spells remaining. Gotta love that flying.

The second answers banning of Nightsticks and non-deity domain selection. Large, +17/+12 attack, 2d6+8+d6 fire, AC 24, DR 3/evil, 71 HP, plenty of Cleric spells remaining and Ring of Counterspelling to counter Dispel Magic.

The third answers threats lots of Dispel Magic against an obviously buffed PC and divine anger about not turning undead. +15/+10 attack, 2d6+8+d6 fire, AC 20, 50 HP, only one 4th level spell used. Except for the HP, still compares with melee classes in the front line yet can perform clerical duties, especially healing and destroying undead. And a holy symbol of Pelor that's on fire and can cut through Deeper Darkness is cool.

[warmachine]

Just to see what it would look like and shock another DM, I created a 12th level version. Running 6 persistent spells is just so funny. The stats are even funnier.

12th level with Nightsticks

Large, +26/+26/+21/+16 attack, 2d6+19+d6 cold damage + good, AC 21, DR 3/evil, 105 HP, 40ft flying, plenty of Cleric spells remaining. Every living creature within 10ft heals 4 HP per round and undead suffer 8 damage per round (no save or SR). Enemies in range also receive this healing but that's not a healthy place to stand. Also, allies within 30ft get +3 attack and damage and one more melee attack.

A cleric that's a better melee fighter than the melee classes and still fulfills his healer/buffer/fire support roles.

[greenknight]

You might want to try working in an Animated Large Steel Shield +1 in there somewhere. Also, since you have Extend Spell, why not cast Extended Greater Magic Weapon and Extended Magic Vestment? That would give you another +2 on your weapon (+3 total) and +2 on AC (+3 total). Adding an Animated Large Shield with Extended Magic Vestment would give you another +5 to AC.

I also suggest you pay someone to polymorph you into a War Troll (MM III). If you get an extended version it will cost 1,530gp, and last for 2 weeks. Even under the new Polymorph subschool rules you can cast spells, because PAO inherits it's rules from Polymoph, which inherits from Alter Self, which specifically permits spellcasting. That will give you Large size, base 31 Strength, 16 Dexterity and 29 Constitution, and +14 Natural Armor. Add in your other buffs and you're Huge sized (15' natural reach, double with a Reach weapon) and the Strength score goes to 41. You also gain Dazing Blow as an extraordinary attack which works with any weapon. You wouldn't need DMM: Lesser Holy Transformation anymore, so I suggest you make it DMM: Shield of Faith instead, giving you a constant +4 Deflection bonus to AC. Combined with the other AC boosts I've suggested, that's AC 45 (10 base, +8 armor, +3 armor enhancement, +2 shield, +3 shield enhancement, +1 dexterity, +14 natural, +2 enhancement to natural AC, +4 deflection, -2 size). Most CR12 creatures won't be able to hit you in combat, and you should almost never suffer from a critical hit. Your Fort save would be +18 and your Reflex would be +7, although your Will save would go down to +14 (still very good for that level of character).

Since your character is Neutral, I suggest you channel negative energy. You lose the ability to spontaneously heal, but now you rebuke undead, and that DR you get from Righteous Might changes to 3/Good, which is more useful to you in most campaigns.

If you can also afford a Strand of Prayer Beads (which costs 9,000gp if you remove the Bead of Smiting), you can probably ditch the Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic). Your effective caster level for your buffs would be 16, meaning it would take a 17 or better on a Dispel Magic check to remove your buffs, and an 18 or better to dispel the PAO (this is because Dispel Magic caps at a +10 modifier to the check, regardless of caster level).

EDIT: Forget to add, change 2 levels of Cleric for 2 levels of Contemplative (Complete Divine PrC). That gives you a bonus Domain, immunity to all diseases (even magical ones), and a re-roll (one round later) if you fail a Will save vs spells which control or compel.