Warblade Feats

[Abstruse]

I just picked up Tome of Battle earlier this week, and already I'm thinking of using it. I'm creating a human Warblade character who focuses on teamwork and charging attacks, primarily through the Stone Dragon and White Raven disciplines. What feats (either from Core or from any of the Complete books) might mesh well with that combat dynamic? Any suggestions for tactics in combat?

[ZeroNumerous]

Well I'd suggest picking up a reach weapon and grabbing good ole Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior.

[Talya]

Someone posted a link to a guide to Tome of Battle builds the other day, I can't find it now, but the neatest warblade I'd ever seen was in it (Was a Warblade 10/Dervish 10.)

[Legoman]

I just picked up Tome of Battle earlier this week, and already I'm thinking of using it. I'm creating a human Warblade character who focuses on teamwork and charging attacks, primarily through the Stone Dragon and White Raven disciplines. What feats (either from Core or from any of the Complete books) might mesh well with that combat dynamic? Any suggestions for tactics in combat?

That's cool that you wan't to help your party - but I'd suggest picking one of those schools, and then going with something that only Warblades get - Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are both power schools, and they have way too much nifty stuff to pass up (Like, say, two full attack actions or +100 damage, as well as re-rolling failed saves.)

As mentioned before, take the spiked chain / leap attack / shock trooper/ power attack combo to give yourself some impressive charge damage. Take improved trip as well, because the spiked chain just asks for it - and helps your team not get killed as you tank the baddie.

If you really want to get intense with your role as the tank, go for Master of 9 (You might need a Martial Study feat to pull it off) and then get the 3rd level stance, Thicket of Blades from Devoted Spirit. Then, even 5-foot steps provoke AoOs from you - attacks of opportunity that you can use to trip fools and keep them away from your friends.

Since you're already taking Devo Spirit maneuvers, if you go that route, you can get the strike that gives you a full heal as well. With Warblade recovery method, you're basically dropping a heal on yourself or an ally every other round, if you really need it.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Make sure you get Combat Reflexes and feats that improve your Attack of Opportunities (such as Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike--or Backstab if you can use DRs/Crystal Keep): that's one of the places a Warblade excels. Since you get Int to attack rolls for AoOs at later levels, and most maneuvers are a standard action, you can use a maneuver during an AoO with some amazing results. The suggestion of getting Thicket of Blades was a nice one, as it really helps with AoOs.

[Abstruse]

Would Combat Brute, from Complete Warrior, be of any use? It seems to focus on charging tactics as well, but I'm betting the consensus is that Sunder wipes out too much useful treasure.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I haven't used it, but Combat Brute seems to be accepted as a good feat. As you mentioned, sundering your opponent's weapons, while cool, deprives you of much loot.

[Theodoxus]

What exactly is great about Shock Trooper? I don't use special attack routines in my tactics, as I don't play the tank... but I don't see the usefulness of Directed Bull Rush - unless pushing the enemy into your partymates allows your friends to get AoOs.

Domino Rush I can see, as trip is pretty brutal - but I've been burned - well, not me, but a party member was burned by tripping every enemy he came across (imp. trip and spiked chain = smackdown) and then disarming them too - ouch. The DM finally got fed up with the constant cheese and when the 'chain weilding maniac' went down on watch, we didn't know he'd been knocked into the negatives and he died.

Heedless Charge is ok, I suppose - stealing PA modifier from your AC rather than your BAB means you hit very hard and with great accuracy - just hope you kill the target...

Again, I don't play the special attack fiend, but none of these abilities strikes me as the MUST HAVE that everyone says is required for a decent melee guy.

What am I missing?

[The_Snark]

What exactly is great about Shock Trooper? I don't use special attack routines in my tactics, as I don't play the tank... but I don't see the usefulness of Directed Bull Rush - unless pushing the enemy into your partymates allows your friends to get AoOs.

Domino Rush I can see, as trip is pretty brutal - but I've been burned - well, not me, but a party member was burned by tripping every enemy he came across (imp. trip and spiked chain = smackdown) and then disarming them too - ouch. The DM finally got fed up with the constant cheese and when the 'chain weilding maniac' went down on watch, we didn't know he'd been knocked into the negatives and he died.

Heedless Charge is ok, I suppose - stealing PA modifier from your AC rather than your BAB means you hit very hard and with great accuracy - just hope you kill the target...

Again, I don't play the special attack fiend, but none of these abilities strikes me as the MUST HAVE that everyone says is required for a decent melee guy.

What am I missing?

It's the Heedless Charge part that everybody takes it for. Transferring attack penalty to AC means you can Power Attack for full on a charge without lowering the chances of wasting the charge. It leaves you really vulnerable, of course, but the assumption is that they won't be able to do as much damage to you as you've just done to them, even with really low AC. Most figher-types have enough hit points to suck up at least a round of hits from any opponent...

It's often used with Leap Attack for better results. I like Shock Trooper for warblades, especially White Raven warblades, who have nifty charge maneuvers. Goes awesomely well with War Master's Charge at high levels, because even if your opponent survives the 100+ damage, they're stunned next round and can't take advantage of your abysmal AC.

I'm also fond of Combat Brute; Sundering Cleave is good, and Momentum Swing is good also, especially if you're already using lots of charges. The bull rush maneuver synergizes with some of the Stone Dragon stuff, and with Shock Trooper, too...

[Abstruse]

It's often used with Leap Attack for better results. I like Shock Trooper for warblades, especially White Raven warblades, who have nifty charge maneuvers. Goes awesomely well with War Master's Charge at high levels, because even if your opponent survives the 100+ damage, they're stunned next round and can't take advantage of your abysmal AC.

Heh. Sounds like a solid tactic, even though I was wondering more about low-to-mid-level constructions. (Although looking at War Master's Charge, it appears it has to be both you AND an ally hitting with your charge to stun the opponent.)

Here's one possibility I'd been tinkering with:

Lvl 1 (Warblade 1):
* Feat: power attack
* Human feat: EWP (spiked chain)
Lvl 2 (Fighter 1):
* Bonus feat: improved bullrush
Lvl 3 (Warblade 2):
* Feat: weapon focus (spiked chain)
Lvl 4 (Warblade 3):
Lvl 5 (Warblade 4):
Lvl 6 (Fighter 2):
* Feat: weapon specialization (spiked chain)
* Bonus feat: shock trooper
Lvl 7: (Warblade 5):
* Bonus feat: combat reflexes

Of course, the problem is that with that build there really isn't an opening for either Leap Attack or the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip combination until Level 9 or substantially later. Unless, of course, I mix in more fighter levels earlier, but then there's the gap at Fighter 3.

[Theodoxus]

Heh. Sounds like a solid tactic, even though I was wondering more about low-to-mid-level constructions. (Although looking at War Master's Charge, it appears it has to be both you AND an ally hitting with your charge to stun the opponent.)

Here's one possibility I'd been tinkering with:

Lvl 1 (Warblade 1):
* Feat: power attack
* Human feat: EWP (spiked chain)
Lvl 2 (Fighter 1):
* Bonus feat: improved bullrush
Lvl 3 (Warblade 2):
* Feat: weapon focus (spiked chain)
Lvl 4 (Warblade 3):
Lvl 5 (Warblade 4):
Lvl 6 (Fighter 2):
* Feat: weapon specialization (spiked chain)
* Bonus feat: shock trooper
Lvl 7: (Warblade 5):
* Bonus feat: combat reflexes

Of course, the problem is that with that build there really isn't an opening for either Leap Attack or the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip combination until Level 9 or substantially later. Unless, of course, I mix in more fighter levels earlier, but then there's the gap at Fighter 3.

One problem, unless theres a houserule, the pre-req for Weapon Spec is Ftr 4.
Is it possilble to pick up flaws for extra feats in the game? Shaky would be decent, since I doubt you'd be making ranged attacks. That could provide you with combat expertise; there are a number of additional flaws that might be right for your character too - they can be found here http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl With two, you'd be a tripping fool at 1st level.

[InaVegt]

One problem, unless theres a houserule, the pre-req for Weapon Spec is Ftr 4.

A warblade qualifies for fighter only feats as a fighter of 2 levels lower, this stacks with fighter levels, at 6th level he is a WB 4/F 2 (effective F level = 4)

[Abstruse]

Yup. That's why I structured it so the 2nd fighter level would fall at level 6 -- thus allowing the build to get both the weapon specialization and the shock trooper feats at once.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

White Raven is all about making your party as a whole kick arse. With that in mind...

If you have one or more precision-based damage dealers (rogues or the like), then you can't go wrong with the feat Clarion Call (not to be confused with the maneuver by the same name). Make an Intimidate check DC 20 (FLAT!) to make an opponent considered to be flanked for a full minute. Rogues... eliminate that. It even works on things with Uncanny Dodge, because you aren't trying to flank him, he's just considered to be flanked. Also considering how many ways a White Raven guy can help their rogue friend get into flanking position in the first place. Very nasty combo here.

And yes, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Stance of the Giant (actually a Stone Dragon stance which lets you be considered to be Large), and Combat Reflexes. Everything near you falls down dead.

Other things to consider:

Iron Heart is Warblade only, take advantage of this. Iron Heart Aura... all allies have +2 to all saves as long as you're in an Iron Heart stance. There's a cute 1st level stance which gives you bonuses to hit and damage at the cost of AC. Use it.

White Raven Aura gives yourself a +1 AC, and all allies +1 AC if you're using a White Raven weapon (like, say... a Greatsword).

Weapon Specialization chain is a TRAP. It's only +2 damage, and it burns a feat. NOT worth it. Chains like PA/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack can add 3-4X your BAB to damage. Much better. Stack on the Iron Heart strike to do an extra +100 damage, and then grab the Pounce maneuver from Tiger Fang... you can make a FULL attack with a charge, for a MINIMUM of +180 damage a hit. A few hits with this and you can take down Big T in one round.
Here's the breakdown... First you leap in and do all PA into damage, using Shock Trooper to drop your defense. Then you let him get a full attack on you. Yes, you actually want this. With a good con, he can't one-round you. But every time he hits you for 50 damage, you hit him back for close to 200. He can't win on this exchange, not after you've already hit him for three or four times for 180+ damage. And all your Power Attack damage and multipliers last until the beginning of your NEXT turn, which means it adds on for every Karmic Strike AoO.

[Legoman]

White Raven is all about making your party as a whole kick arse. With that in mind...

If you have one or more precision-based damage dealers (rogues or the like), then you can't go wrong with the feat Clarion Call (not to be confused with the maneuver by the same name). Make an Intimidate check DC 20 (FLAT!) to make an opponent considered to be flanked for a full minute. Rogues... eliminate that. It even works on things with Uncanny Dodge, because you aren't trying to flank him, he's just considered to be flanked. Also considering how many ways a White Raven guy can help their rogue friend get into flanking position in the first place. Very nasty combo here.

And yes, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Stance of the Giant (actually a Stone Dragon stance which lets you be considered to be Large), and Combat Reflexes. Everything near you falls down dead.

Other things to consider:

Iron Heart is Warblade only, take advantage of this. Iron Heart Aura... all allies have +2 to all saves as long as you're in an Iron Heart stance. There's a cute 1st level stance which gives you bonuses to hit and damage at the cost of AC. Use it.

White Raven Aura gives yourself a +1 AC, and all allies +1 AC if you're using a White Raven weapon (like, say... a Greatsword).

Weapon Specialization chain is a TRAP. It's only +2 damage, and it burns a feat. NOT worth it. Chains like PA/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack can add 3-4X your BAB to damage. Much better. Stack on the Iron Heart strike to do an extra +100 damage, and then grab the Pounce maneuver from Tiger Fang... you can make a FULL attack with a charge, for a MINIMUM of +180 damage a hit. A few hits with this and you can take down Big T in one round.
Here's the breakdown... First you leap in and do all PA into damage, using Shock Trooper to drop your defense. Then you let him get a full attack on you. Yes, you actually want this. With a good con, he can't one-round you. But every time he hits you for 50 damage, you hit him back for close to 200. He can't win on this exchange, not after you've already hit him for three or four times for 180+ damage. And all your Power Attack damage and multipliers last until the beginning of your NEXT turn, which means it adds on for every Karmic Strike AoO.

Where is that pounce thing again? Also, you can't use standard actions on AoO's.

Also, the Iron Heart Strike is a full round action - but if you're Leap Attacking with a Valorous Lance, you're already getting close to 100 damage without rolling dice anyway. 3*(20 + 1d6 + STR * 1.5 + Enhancement)

There's also a counter in Iron Heart that lets you take an extra attack, in addition to/in replacement of your AoO.

You charge and destroy. Fool is about to hit back, provokes an AoO due to Karmic strike. Hits you once, whatever. Smack him twice.

If he's not dead, what the hell are you fighting?

Also, protip: Diamond Nightmare Blade (8th level) means quad damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pouncing Charge is a 3rd level maneuver, meaning you need to be 5th level Warblade, and have at least two different Tiger Fang maneuvers known to get it. It lets you make a full attack as part of a charge.

Strike of Perfect Clarity is the one that gives you a +100 damage on a single attack. Doesn't say what kind of attack. Use it with AoO. Find a way to recover it swiftly. Break it. Break it good.

PA/ST/LA = 3*BAB to damage. That's 60 right there without anything.

Hmm... be able to make two maneuvers at once... Strike of Perfect Clarity + Diamond Nightmare Blade = MINIMUM (100+60) * 4.... for ONE attack you get a minimum of 160*4=640 damage. One-shot the Taurrasque.

[The_Snark]

Strike of Perfect Clarity is the one that gives you a +100 damage on a single attack. Doesn't say what kind of attack. Use it with AoO. Find a way to recover it swiftly. Break it. Break it good.

Yes, it does say. You make a single melee attack as a standard action, which deals +100 damage. When you figure out a way to take a standard action when presented with an attack of opportunity, let everyone know, especially the spellcasters. You also can't charge and make a standard action, so you'll have to use Stance of Perfect Clarity the round after you charge.

Hmm... be able to make two maneuvers at once... Strike of Perfect Clarity + Diamond Nightmare Blade = MINIMUM (100+60) * 4.... for ONE attack you get a minimum of 160*4=640 damage. One-shot the Taurrasque.

How are you using these two maneuvers at the same time?

Some good (higher-level) combos that work, though: Shock Trooper (add in charge-enhancing White Raven stuff, like Leading the Charge and the charge maneuvers) +Wall of Blades, a 2nd-level Iron Heart counter without any prerequisites. Sure, your AC is probably in the single digits... but you can use Wall of Blades to replace it with an attack roll against an attack. Useable from level 6 upwards, which is nice.


Also, Stormguard Warrior is an awesome feat, especially with Robilar's Gambit. Launch an Avalanche of Blades, turning all your attacks into harmless touch attacks with Combat Rhythm, and start using Robilar's Gambit. Your opponent, bewildered that you just tapped him harmlessly several times and are now leaving yourself open, attacks you back. You forgo your attacks of opportunity, as per Channel the Storm.

Now, your turn. For every time your opponent attacked you, you've got +4 to all attacks and damage. For every time you hit with a touch attack during Avalanche of Blades, you've got +5 to damage. At high levels, this is easily +16 to attacks and +31 to damage. Use Time Stands Still, or a plain full attack if you don't have that, hopefully with Snap Kick either way. You can probably afford to convert quite a lot of that attack bonus into damage with Power Attack, too.

[Legoman]

Yes, it does say. You make a single melee attack as a standard action, which deals +100 damage. When you figure out a way to take a standard action when presented with an attack of opportunity, let everyone know, especially the spellcasters. You also can't charge and make a standard action, so you'll have to use Stance of Perfect Clarity the round after you charge.

Verily, the guide doth say the maneuver is a Full-Round action.

[The_Snark]

Verily, the guide doth say the maneuver is a Full-Round action.

Strike of Perfect Clarity? The 9th-level Iron Heart strike? Eh... my Tome of Battle is saying a standard action. Which guide?

[Dausuul]

I just picked up Tome of Battle earlier this week, and already I'm thinking of using it. I'm creating a human Warblade character who focuses on teamwork and charging attacks, primarily through the Stone Dragon and White Raven disciplines. What feats (either from Core or from any of the Complete books) might mesh well with that combat dynamic? Any suggestions for tactics in combat?

At 9th level, get Martial Maneuver and pick up Shadow Stride. It lets you teleport 50 feet as a move action, and (for reasons I will never comprehend) it has no prereqs. The tactical value of that ability is friggin' huge.

As for general tactics, it really depends on who else you've got in your party and what level you are. The White Raven Tactics maneuver is a great one for giving somebody in your party a bonus round; generally, this is best applied to one of the casters. The aforementioned teleportation means you provide continuous flanking for the rogue.

Generally, as a warblade, your job is simple: Get in the bad guys' faces and mow them down. Warblades are heavily focussed on offense rather than defense, which means that hanging back to guard your buddies is not usually an ideal move. Better to close with the enemy and lay waste.

[namo]

Now, your turn. For every time your opponent attacked you, you've got +4 to all attacks and damage. For every time you hit with a touch attack during Avalanche of Blades, you've got +5 to damage. At high levels, this is easily +16 to attacks and +31 to damage. Use Time Stands Still, or a plain full attack if you don't have that, hopefully with Snap Kick either way. You can probably afford to convert quite a lot of that attack bonus into damage with Power Attack, too.

...with Dancing/Raging Mangoose to have a few more extra attacks.

To the OP: note that it can become messy if your opponent has Karmic Strike-like abilities and/or is a Swordsage : the Setting Sun school has some (admittedly high-level) maneuvers that allow to redirect a hit to one of your ally or even yourself !

Among the 9th-level maneuvers available to a straight Warblade, the Iron Heart and Tiger Claw ones are the least interesting.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'm afraid that I have to disagree there. Iron Heart Surge is one of the best maneuvers ever, and potentially even more powerful than epic spells. It can instantly, automatically, negate and end any other effect.

Examples -

-Poisons
-Negative Levels (I think)
-Magic, including antimagic effects
-Epic Spells
-Divine Salient Abilities

Awesome.

[The_Snark]

I'm afraid that I have to disagree there. Iron Heart Surge is one of the best maneuvers ever, and potentially even more powerful than epic spells. It can instantly, automatically, negate and end any other effect.

Examples -

-Poisons
-Negative Levels (I think)
-Magic, including antimagic effects
-Epic Spells
-Divine Salient Abilities

Awesome.

The text is unclear, but I was under the impression that you have to be able to take a standard action to use it. It still negates poisons, negative levels, paralysis (mental actions allowed), entanglement, some spells, and mild fear, but if you're nauseated, Imprisoned, panicked, Dominated, or subjected to any spell that doesn't let you take that standard action, it's useless. Me, I can't think of many epic spells that that would help against.

Among the 9th-level maneuvers available to a straight Warblade, the Iron Heart and Tiger Claw ones are the least interesting.

Why? Instant death and +100 damage seem pretty good to me. War Master's Charge is more devastating with a party, of course, and a well-built warblade can make excellent use of Time Stands Still, but the Stone Dragon strike looks less interesting to me.

[namo]

The text is unclear, but I was under the impression that you have to be able to take a standard action to use it. It still negates poisons, negative levels, paralysis (mental actions allowed), entanglement, some spells, and mild fear, but if you're nauseated, Imprisoned, panicked, Dominated, or subjected to any spell that doesn't let you take that standard action, it's useless. Me, I can't think of many epic spells that that would help against.

Yes, it seems like it doesn't actually negate what it would be supposed to (dazing, domination...), whereas it takes down antimagic fields (crazy, but I actually like that). Check with your DM (as usual).

Why? Instant death and +100 damage seem pretty good to me. War Master's Charge is more devastating with a party, of course, and a well-built warblade can make excellent use of Time Stands Still, but the Stone Dragon strike looks less interesting to me.

2d6 Constitution damage means 7 on average : if you use it against a creature with 17 HD, that's already 119 HP damage (more than the IH strike) - and at those levels monsters generally have way more HDs than the PCs. You also lowered its Fortitude save, and there's always the 0 Con = death. The only advantage of the IH strike is that it works on creatures without a Con score ; but my impression is that in general a full attack will do better (note: I have actually never played at level 17+).

edit: I am actually not so sure about the Tiger Claw one : it depends how high a DC you can reach, and what the Fort saves are like.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

The only advantage of the IH strike is that it works on creatures without a Con score ; but my impression is that in general a full attack will do better (note: I have actually never played at level 17+).

edit: I am actually not so sure about the Tiger Claw one : it depends how high a DC you can reach, and what the Fort saves are like.

The other advantage of the IH strike is that it's not a full-round action. Which, by that level, you should be able to set up pretty frequently, but if you need to move, that's still a heavy hit at the end.

The TC one can be pretty nasty, or so I'm told. You can get a really high DC without a lot of effort, and an obscene one if you try. As in our campaign, namo: Thri-Kreen gives +30 to jump, and there's a stance that gives +10 and makes all jumps count as running jumps (then there's ranks in the skill, the synergy bonus from tumble, etc, etc.) The great thing about it is the high damage even if your opponent makes the save.

[Pauwel]

The other advantage of the IH strike is that it's not a full-round action. Which, by that level, you should be able to set up pretty frequently, but if you need to move, that's still a heavy hit at the end.

The TC one can be pretty nasty, or so I'm told. You can get a really high DC without a lot of effort, and an obscene one if you try. As in our campaign, namo: Thri-Kreen gives +30 to jump, and there's a stance that gives +10 and makes all jumps count as running jumps (then there's ranks in the skill, the synergy bonus from tumble, etc, etc.) The great thing about it is the high damage even if your opponent makes the save.

A high Jump check doesn't add to the DC in my Tome. It's required to initiate the maneuver, but it doesn't add to the DC.

[Koji]

Couple warblade questions, while we're on the topic.

I'm going to be running a 3 character campaign. One of my players is playing a dwarven warblade. The other two are going to be a truenamer and either a bard or cleric. I think the warblade is going iron heart and white raven.

I understand outright that warblade is a higher-end class and the truenamer is going to have trouble keeping up. I don't want to restrict my warblade from being what he wants, but I also don't want him stealing the spotlight at every turn. What should I watch out for to make sure he doesn't outpace the group without just gimping him outright? Will it even be a problem?

[Ramza00]

Couple warblade questions, while we're on the topic.

I'm going to be running a 3 character campaign. One of my players is playing a dwarven warblade. The other two are going to be a truenamer and either a bard or cleric. I think the warblade is going iron heart and white raven.

I understand outright that warblade is a higher-end class and the truenamer is going to have trouble keeping up. I don't want to restrict my warblade from being what he wants, but I also don't want him stealing the spotlight at every turn. What should I watch out for to make sure he doesn't outpace the group without just gimping him outright? Will it even be a problem?

You are looking at this completely wrong. It should be what will you allow for the truenamer to make him a better asset to the party.

[Koji]

Elighten me, then.

I am not proposing that I cut off some of my warblade's abilities, I'm just trying to forsee how this is going to end up playing out. Is my truenamer going to say something like, "I will use my stun ability! Oh I failed my truespeak check." While my warblade dishes out 70+ damage per round? Am I just overestimating the warblade's capability? I've only encountered them from the perspective of a player in a game where we were all core classes and we had to fight a team of book of nine swords guys that walked all over us.

That said, I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to screw the warblade over, I'm just wondering whether he is going to outshine the rest of the party and what I should do to keep the party from dividing into two groups--the warblade, and his sidekicks.

[Person_Man]

Behold, the compilation of ToB combo's and ToB builds.

FYI, I've found its best to avoid using/abusing ToB material if your party is not familiar with it. It's very strong compared to non-full casters. They'll resent your power in a way that they don't resent casters, because casters are core-ish and you aren't, even though full casters are still much more powerful then you.