Witches in D&D

[KIDS]

Well, even though I was always fond of the concept, the recent filming of movie Stardust reminded me of witchcraft. Of course, as an example in DMG there is a Witch spell list, but without making a whole class for scratch (I saw some but they were hideously complicated), how would you make a witch?

I was thinking something with Spirit Shaman (lacks some crucial evil spells, in my opinion), or perhaps a Cleric with Trickery/Charm/Mind/Animal (make your pick) domains. Perhaps a wizard or sorcerer would work too. Brew Potion seems an essential thing too, but the only thing that allows you to make powerful potions I am aware of is infusions from Masters of the Wild, which are linked to Verdant Lords and a bit unfitting.

Druid seems to straightforward in my mind.

So... any ideas? It's supposed to be something playable from low levels too, keep in mind.

Thanks. Let your imagination run wild!

[Hurlbut]

A female warlock could be a witch.
In some sources, the warlocks are male and the witches are female, so one would think that they're mirroring each other, only that male witches are warlocks and that female warlocks are witches. Well that's a tongue twister.

[Hazkali]

I'm in the middle of designing a Witch base class, based mainly on the idea of using a poppet to inflict vairous effects on their foes, using a similar "unlimited uses per day" idea as the Warlock.

I think if you want an already created base class, I would vote Warlock as a good choice. All of the Invocations are very "witchy".

[KIDS]

I was thinking that too only.... does Eldritch blast seem a bit too straightforward for a witch?
My own list of effects I would like to have is roughly like this:

1. Charms/Dominations
2. Disguise/Shifting (also takes care of the "old crone" transforming into someone beautiful all of sudden)
3. Healing/Inflict spells
4. Weak in melee or ranged combat but a solid hit die.
5. Possibly animate dead. Zombies are a good bet.

[Hurlbut]

I was thinking that too only.... does Eldritch blast seem a bit too straightforward for a witch?
My own list of effects I would like to have is roughly like this:

1. Charms/Dominations
2. Disguise/Shifting (also takes care of the "old crone" transforming into someone beautiful all of sudden)
3. Healing/Inflict spells
4. Weak in melee or ranged combat but a solid hit die.
5. Possibly animate dead. Zombies are a good bet.

You can alway make variant class features for the Warlock that's exclusively female.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd go with Druid or Binder myself. Otherwise just a sorcerer. Could even be a wilder.

[Annarrkkii]

Heroes of Horror has the Dread Witch, for the warty traditionalists among us, and I've seen Sea Witches, Fey Witches, and Good Witches in other sources, as well. Most are Prestige Classes built for an arcane spellcasting baseclass, typically Sorcerer for the CHA synergy.

[Hurlbut]

Heroes of Horror has the Dread Witch, for the warty traditionalists among us, and I've seen Sea Witches, Fey Witches, and Good Witches in other sources, as well. Most are Prestige Classes built for an arcane spellcasting baseclass, typically Sorcerer for the CHA synergy.

Yeah that would be the second simplest way to do it; have a PrC class for the Witch.

[Dark]

Don't forget divinations! Very witchy :)

I think a sorceress specializing in enchantments and transmutations would go a long way to being a witch. You can get a cat, too. Just find a Craft Poisoned Apple feat somewhere.

Important spells: geas/quest, baleful polymorph, bestow curse
At low levels, cause fear is good.

[The_Snark]

I sort of like anima mage (using a binder/sorcerer) for a witch-like character. Summoning spirits is pretty witchy, and with proper spell selection you can get a pretty witchy spell list. Fear, Flesh to Stone, Black Karma Curse, Charms, Geas/quest; at low levels, Charm Person, Sleep, and Web are good.

Warlock is good, too; Eldritch Blast does seem a bit too straightforward for a witch, but you can take Sickening Blast or Frightful Blast, which makes it a bit better flavor-wise.

[YPU]

I think before asking this you should really pin down the concept ‘witch’ is it the old wart and evil? Or perhaps a more wican approach? If it comes to the wican like theme I am al for druid. There are multiple third source books specifically on witches

[de-trick]

i think a witch is a cleric/sorcerer

[adanedhel9]

Page 175 of the DMG actually has a Witch's spell list for an otherwise Sorcerer. It's part of the "Making your own Classes" section, as an example of how to create a "new" class simply by creating a new spell list.

I seem to recall that the 3.0 DMG had something similar, but it went through the whole class, choosing hit dice, BAB, saves, spellcasting style, and other stuff to make a (somewhat) unique class.

[KIDS]

Hmph. I also discovered Beguiler (PHB 2), but Trapfinding and Armored Caster somehow don't sit well with the concept.

So here's what I looked over:

The warlock and sorcerer look fine, but lack healing spells (even the lesser ones).
The spirit shaman has healing but lacks subtlety. If we eliminate its "blast" spells, it turns into something very poor.
The cleric (not of deity) with Trickery and Charm domains also seems ok, but I'm wondering if that character would be crippled, as the cleric as meant to be played uses spells like Divine Might, nukes and etc. - spells that don't fit into the witch. Resorting to Divine Metacheese for buffing others or pulling off unusual combos is a possible option.
The Shugenja completely lacks most of "witch" spells and seems directly out.
Druid seems a safe bet, but again, might be too flashy. In additon, why would a witch take a druidic oath?

For the concept, yeah, she's not evil but isn't good either (guess what that leaves, haha). She revels in confusion, scrying and trickery. Has connection with nature but not so much to have giant animals following around or turning into them. Manipulates the basics of life, death or time.

Skillls are also a factor. Having Bluff, Disguise and various Knowledge Skills as class skills would be really well-fitting.

My other thought is that I'm asking too much of this concept. Maybe a mystic theurge cleric (trickery/charm)/sorcerer would set her on her way, but it seems awful in terms of power. When we rule out most direct damage, that leaves buffs, trickery and disabling, and such a character would fall behind even in that no matter the versatility.

I'll try to dig out Heroes of Horror, anyone knows if there is an excerpt from it somewhere?

[EvilElitest]

If anyone knows about mongoose publishing, then i think they have a witch class
from,
EE

[Talya]

If you don't mind using Ravenloft (White Wolf), Van Richten's Arsenal has a "Hallowed Witch" PrC that's just spectacular. Sortof a mystic theurge (does divine and arcane simultaneously), but with actual class abillities and style to go with it.

[The_Snark]

Hmph. I also discovered Beguiler (PHB 2), but Trapfinding and Armored Caster somehow don't sit well with the concept.

So here's what I looked over:

The warlock and sorcerer look fine, but lack healing spells (even the lesser ones).

Hmmm. Actually, I think that was why a witch-like character I played was an anima mage rather than a plain sorcerer. One of the vestiges grants a healing ability, along with warding off disease and giving bonuses to a couple of nature-oriented skills. It's not much, but it's something.

Not really sure why a witch ought to have a lot of healing spells, though.

[Dant]

I hadn't really considered it before, but Binders would make very good witches. They deal with spirits outside the domain of the gods in order to gain extraordinary powers. Even includes physical deformities.

Although I suppose I should have considered it, since the Witchhunter PrC is in the same chapter.

[Leush]

Pfft, and why do people go digging in sourcebooks? Use one of UA's 'spellcasters' from the SRD and allow the Epic Brew Potion feat (that lifts the spell level restriction from the potions you can brew) to be taken at say level 6 and you're sorted. Make it a divine spellcaster and say that familiars are allowed for them.

Alternatively, use a wizard with evocation and abjuration as barred schools and any of the others as specialisation. Maybe swap scribe scroll for a different feat.

Druids also make very, very good witches- just swap out animal companion for familiar if you think that makes for a tastier sandwich, and remember to allow the Epic Brew Potion feat (whatever its called). One of the NPCs I've made is a relatively low level druid type witch, and another (which sadly I never got to play) a low-mid level wizard style witch- both of the grumpy, cauldron stirring grandma variety.

[WhyBother]

No witch thread is complete without Shadowfoot's Witch class from the "This Should be Official" contest over at the WotC forums.

Very flexible in terms of flavor, but also a pretty good build.

[KIDS]

Oh yes, I saw Shadowfoot's work. It's one of things I'm considering, though it looks a bit... dunno... complicated? Maybe just too much info on dabbling, but it does appear very good :)

[argentsaber]

i may be stoned for this, but a beguiller is not a terrible witch. that said, a druid/beguiller/arcane heirophant/mystic theurge is a VERY good (read bad) witch. personally i also like beguiler/urpriest/mystic theurge. very fun, if less potent.

[Tor the Fallen]

Brew potion should be a bonus feat.

[Pronounceable]

I can never accept the classical fairy tale witch after reading thru Discworld. See here, for those unaware of the majesty of Granny Weatherwax:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_%28Discworld%29

[AtomicKitKat]

I don't remember any witches doing "Healing".

Charm: Check. All the way from Suggestion to Dominate Monster.
Force Quest: Geas, Bestow Curse, etc.
Paralysis: From Hold Person up to Power Word Stun. Scaled down Entangle works too.
Divinations: Definitely.
Changing appearance: Disguise Self, Alter Self, Imvisibility, Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph.

So from what we see, Witches specialise in Divinations, Enchantments(Compulsion, etc.), Illusion, Transmutation, Necromancy.

In all honesty, D&D handles the whole "Witches as a classic fantasy staple" with Hags. Look at all the Hags available(Annis, Sea Hag, Green Hag, Winter Hag{M something, in Frostburn}, Desert Hag{May not exist. Probably in Sandstorm if it does}), distill their spell lists, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities, and you'll have a rough idea of what makes a "classic storybook witch".

Personally, I wouldn't really give them more than d6. Witches very seldom went into actual combat, unless they took on a more combat-friendly form. Conversely, the Hags in D&D are a little more robust, being Monstrous Humanoid(Full BAB, D8 HD. Outsider HD with the same, but all good saves and skills, for the Night Hags).

[Gwenfloor]

I was thinking that too only.... does Eldritch blast seem a bit too straightforward for a witch?
My own list of effects I would like to have is roughly like this:

1. Charms/Dominations
2. Disguise/Shifting (also takes care of the "old crone" transforming into someone beautiful all of sudden)
3. Healing/Inflict spells
4. Weak in melee or ranged combat but a solid hit die.
5. Possibly animate dead. Zombies are a good bet.

What about protective magic?

Also, from what I have read in Wiccan and Celtic witches, when witches did something bad, the Rule of Three dealt back the harm they caused threefold. I think that if you are basing the witches off of Wiccan and Celtic witches, you should probably give them a code of conduct and/or dogma of some sort.

[Human Paragon 3]

Use one of UA's 'spellcasters' from the SRD and allow the Epic Brew Potion feat (that lifts the spell level restriction from the potions you can brew) to be taken at say level 6 and you're sorted. Make it a divine spellcaster and say that familiars are allowed for them.

...

Druids also make very, very good witches- just swap out animal companion for familiar if you think that makes for a tastier sandwich, and remember to allow the Epic Brew Potion feat (whatever its called).

QFT, hits it on the nose. I'll go one step further, here's the link to the Spellcaster from the SRD.

You even get your choice of bonus feats at 1st level and every 5th level thereafter which can be used for anything, item creation, skill focuses in bluff, Spelltouched feats, spell focus in whatever school suits your Witch best, Combat Casting for close-quarters charms or whatever else you need! No spell list, you can pick from any spells ever printed. It's the perfect solution.

[KIDS]

I'd rather stay away from Anima mages or binders, not having any resources about them but I'll see what I can dig up. Beguiler looks nice but again, limiting. Illusions and Charms, no scrying, healing/inflict or polymorph. But I'll look into it too, as well as the "custom" spellcaster.

Here are the concepts I've been pondering lately... (point buy 25 1 for 1), starting at level 1:

WITCH (WARLOCK 1)

STR 8 (0)
DEX 14 (6)
CON 10 (2)
INT 14 (6)
WIS 10 (4)
CHA 17 (9)

AC: 10+2+2+1=15
SAVES: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +3
HP: 6
INVOCATIONS: Beguiling Influence -> See the Unseen, Summon Swarm |, Charm, The Dead Walk, Fell Flight ||, Vitriolic Blast, Warlock's Call, Devour Magic, Utterdark Blast, Word of Changing, Dark Foresight
SKILLS: Bluff +13, Intimidate +13, Diplomacy +9, Use Magic Device +7, Disguise +7, Concentration +2, Spellcraft +4
FEATS: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, possibly (if flaw) Extra Invocation -> Obtain Familiar

Pros, Cons and future:
+: evilness, flight, mind manipulation, baleful polymorph, brews potions, useful, black cat familiar, no flaws necessary, strong at all levels
-: gains potions very late, no healing until 12th level, no magical disguise (this hurts), no scrying, too direct, no

shapechanging (this hurts even more)


WITCH (CLERIC 1, TRICKERY/CHARM)

STR 8 (0)
DEX 12 (4)
CON 10 (2)
INT 12 (4)
WIS 16 (8)
CHA 15 (7)

FEATS: Extra Turning, Extend, Persistent, Divine Metamagic (Persistent)
TURNING: 3+2+4+2=11/day
AC: 10+2+1+1=14
HP: 8
SPELLS: 0 - Guidance, Cure Minor, Cure Minor; 1 - Disguise Self (Persistent?); Lesser Vigor (possibly persistent),

Shield of Faith
SKILLS: Bluff +6, Disguise +6, Concentration +4, Spellcraft +3, Sense Motive +4, Heal +2

Pros, Cons and future:
+: permament disguise, healing, infliction, brews potions early, evilness, scrying, mind manipulation, healing
-: flaws required, no shapechanging, no familiar, not very useful at most levels

WITCH (SORCERER 1)

STR 8 (0)
DEX 12 (4)
CON 13 (5)
INT 12 (4)
WIS 10 (2)
CHA 18 (10)

AC: 10+1=11
SAVES: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +2
HP: 5
SKILLS: Bluff, Concentration, Profession (Gambler), Spellcraft
SPELLS: 0 - Acid Splash, Lullaby, Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic; 1 - Cause Fear, Disguise Self
FEATS: Extend Spell, Necropolis Born/Night's Haunt (any feats of that type for giving disguise self as a SP ability?)

+: useful, charms, mind affecting, protections, summoning, polymorphs, scrying, brews potions, black cat familiar, no flaws necessary
-: no healing or inflict, very weak at low levels (but scales later), lacks skills (disguise is not a class skill, particularly useless against undead/constructs primarily)

On the other hand, presuming one was trying to make a white witch, what class would be more suitable? It would naturally drop the requirements for "evilness" and possibly disguise/polymorph.

[Drider]

i just make them female wwwwwizards

[Hurlbut]

i just make them female wwwwwizards

Odd enough, I can't imagine a witch using a spellbook a lot.