GMs and giving out magic items

[Erk]

Not looking for advice or anything, I'm just curious. I notice often when people are asking for advice or opinions on how to set up their character builds, very common advice goes something like "Then at level 10 or so, buy yourself one of those floating shields", or "Next, invest in Plate Armour +5 and paint it pink" or whatever.

I'm curious: how many of you GM's actually allow players to just walk to the local store and buy the magic item they want? Or to just craft what they need without having to hunt down materials, if they are crafters? And for players, how many of you have GM's who hand over the item you want to complete your build?

I know I, for one, always build my characters under the assumption that I will have no choice in what items I find on my quest, and I build my campaigns with the items nonrandomised and suited to the setting at time of creation. If a party wants something specific they're going to have to work for it: if they have a crafter of their own they are going to have to hunt down materials to make their powerful item (doesn't generally apply for something mundane at their level, or important to basic party function), and if they don't have a crafter they will also have to find one. I was a little surprised, when I came here, that this doesn't seem to be the norm... maybe it's a holdover from my 2nd edition days. Those (gag) Wealth By Level rules certainly would seem to encourage it.

[TheOOB]

I generally try to place items that will be useful. If I know my rogues weapon is out of date, I'll sneak in a nice magic finessable weapon for em and stuff like that.

As for buying magic items, I follow the general rule that each town has a gp limit that describes the highest value item that can be bought there without having to search out and find a powerful caster to craft the item. Common items within the threshold (magic longswords, potions of CLW) can usually be bought off the shelf, while rarer items have to be comissioned and take some time.

[Yechezkiel]

I enjoy playing in low-wealth/magic games and usually run the same. It seems to make victories more memorable and balances some classes against others.

I've also had fun in crazy games where everything is more or less available/plausible, I think everything depends on who you play with.

[Jack Mann]

You'd generally be the exception. D&D is built around players being able to purchase any item they can afford, provided they can find a large enough city.

You see, a character's power is greatly tied up with his wealth. This was true in 2nd edition. 3rd just gave us guidelines for this effect. As well, many classes are affected more adversely by a lack of items than others. Fighters and monks, for example, are both heavily wealth dependant to be effective. Clerics and druids typically fare better, which means the gulf between the two classes only increases when you give out too little treasure. And of course giving out too much treasure, Monty Haul style, gives players too much power for their level, making it harder to challenge them without killing them outright.

If you aren't following the Wealth-by-Level Guidelines, your players will either have an easier or harder time facing monsters of an appropriate CR, making more work for you. It's a balance tool.

[Erk]

heh, I am aware of the theory behind WBL Jack, but I don't subscribe to it. Then again, I don't really subscribe to d&d level-gain mechanics at all. As GM, I like to control that kind of thing and make it story-related entirely. If the fighter needs new equipment to remain as effective as the mage, chances are there will be a legendary greatsword intimately tied to the plot that falls into his hands as part of it. That also lets me give away far more useful items than I am supposedly allowed to do, although one must always be careful about balance. I've thus far never had a single complaint about a nerf midgame to tweak balance ("Sorry jim, but that sword is just doing too much. Do you mind if I retcon it down to +4 and turn the vorpal to keen?"), which makes it a lot easier to worry about.

The difference between 3rd edition and 2nd edition, and d&d and most other game systems I play, is that 3rd edition really implies that a GM will have no control: will be unable to tell if his druid player is eclipsing the party, or if the supposed-tank fighter is in fact getting wiped out at the beginning of every encounter because of what he is wearing. It is good that they consider that stuff and give rules for it for novices (or those who see this kind of thing as a headache beyond their control), but most people here aren't novices and don't play with them. Hence my curiosity: how many people actually play by those rules, and how many dropped them by the wayside after their first campaign or two (or openly scoffed at the whole idea from the start).

My latest campaign is mostly level-free, and when I have finished my vile crossbreeding of d&d with BESMd20 to suit my tastes, perhaps I will put it up in the homebrew section. That's another story.

[Jack Mann]

No, DMs have just as much control as they've always had. It's spelled out in the DMG that they are free to change absolutely anything they want. They just caution them to consider the changes carefully beforehand. The fact that some DMs don't take advantage of this is their own fault, and has nothing to do with the way the game was presented and designed by Wizards of the Coast. Indeed, back in the day, Gary Gygax was much more leery of houserules than Wizards, if you'll read his old columns in the early issues of Dragon.

Indeed, because they've streamlined the mechanics, it's much easier to tweak the system than it was in 2nd edition. The mechanics are all integrated, so it's easier to see how a change might affect the system as a whole.

It sounds as though the game you're playing is pretty heavily modified, and that might change the effect treasure has on your players. But in regular D&D, it does have a very strong mechanical effect. Wealth is nearly as important to a character's power as the feats he chooses. The only reason feat selection is more important is that he can't change his feats easily, where in theory he can sell his treasure and purchase new ones.

And the problem is that the monsters designed for the game are made with the assumption that players have appropriate gear for their level. If they don't, then an easy encounter may very well kill the entire party, simply because they lack the ability to take on the threat. A troll is a CR 5 encounter. But if the players have no way to generate acid or fire damage, the encounter may very well be impossible for them to defeat, or even survive.

Could the DM see this and use an easier monster instead? Sure. But it defeats the purpose of the CR system, and requires that you spend a lot more time examining each monster or NPC you send against the party than you otherwise would. With the CR system, you can at least limit a search for a good monster to a much more narrow category.

Now, it seems you don't mind putting in that work. You've redesigned the system a great deal, which means you'd have to do that work anyway. But when I change the system, I prefer to make less work for myself, not more.

[Erk]

Note, I said implies a lack of control for the GM. I realise GM's are still free to play as fast and loose with the rules as they like... it kind of goes without saying, since I'm talking about doing exactly that. Likewise, I agree 3rd edition is better than 2nd in almost all respects, especially modifiability. I'm not still playing 2nd edition, as you can tell.

But when I talk about not really subscribing to the WBL system, this is precisely why:

A troll is a CR 5 encounter. But if the players have no way to generate acid or fire damage, the encounter may very well be impossible for them to defeat, or even survive.

Could the DM see this and use an easier monster instead? Sure. But it defeats the purpose of the CR system, and requires that you spend a lot more time examining each monster or NPC you send against the party than you otherwise would. With the CR system, you can at least limit a search for a good monster to a much more narrow category.

You can avoid wealth-by-level and still easily create a party capable of dealing with the threats presented by them, and still be playing totally vanilla d&d (not RAW, note, but vanilla), CR and all. The whole "party won't be equipped to fight what they face" argument is mainly oriented around the concept of using random monsters and not worrying much in advance over what you're facing. Doing so is hardly a big thing to ask, though... it's an essential part of integrated dungeon design. If you're going to build a room with a troll in it, you should also be thinking about what that troll does, where he eats, why he was there... unless your PC's don't ask questions, which I can scarcely imagine, the fact that there's a troll in the room is going to be important to a lot more than just the encounter. You therefore need to know all the monsters you're introducing at least a little, even if you're following advancement rules religiously. Unless the game is something you're pulling from your bum in a drunken evening (in which case I would use WBL or some approximation thereof), you'll therefore know well in advance what they are coming up against. If you didn't give them a few backup anti-troll resources before they got to that room, then you're the kind of GM who definitely needs a guideline.

From there, well, if the party has been following the 25% resources guideline against CR4 monsters, and I step them up to CR5 and their first conflict with such is alarmingly deadly, that is also when they start finding their next-tier equipment and other perks (assuming I hadn't already anticipated and started handing it out a while before the CR stepped up). Stepping up a CR level is not going to pump the difficulty so far that a party that could successfully fight before that is going to be in serious danger, and not following WBL doesn't mean "not giving out magic items at all ever". Your PC's still need equipment, particularly the combat-heavy ones.



Aaaaanyway, I'm not really here to argue WBL or not. I think it's very much one of those rules that people either like or don't like. I don't like it, when I am running a game, but I don't think less of GM's who do like it. I'm just curious, like I said, how many people actually let their party just walk to Ye Olde Magic Shoppe and buy themselves a Vorpal Rapier +3 because they can afford it.

[lord_khaine]

ehh firstly you mention vorpal rapier, you do know that the vorpal effect is only on a natural 20?

as for the magic shop thing, well it is pretty unlikely that someone would have a magic weapon to 40k in the window, but i can see no reason why the players cant commision that +4 holy greatsword of speed, if they got the cash and can find someone with the relevant feat to make it.

and i must say, i find it a lot more likely that the party hire some local sage to craft their weapons, than that they just happen to "find" gear that maches their need every once in a while.

so in short, i dislike just walking in and buying something worth more than around 8k, but i have no problem with getting someone to make the stuff.

[Bender]

I like the treasure guidelines, because otherwise I would have no clue what would be appropriate to give the PC's in our first campaign. Sometimes I randomly roll treasure, but I always check whether someone of the party could actually use it, and change an item I roll for anther item with more or less equal value. (like changing some potion to silversheen because they will encounter wererats in the near future)

[Shinkoro]

When we start games at various levels we usually let people pick magic items according to the wealth guidelines in the DMG. The DM always has final yes/no on all items. We usually do this because we found that starting 5th level characters with nothing but starting gold meant DM's had to frontload the first 2 or so adventures to bring everyone up to speed vs. the monster ECLs. And, starting with magic makes it easy to bring in new PCs to replace the fallen and them not being under equipped. Its just not likely to go on a 5th level adventure and finish it with several magical items.


After beginning under no conditions can PCs buy magic items of a powerful nature. Our games are low magic games and even a lowly +1 weapon sells for a nice amount if you can find one to begin with. In our game there is no such thing as a unnamed +2 weapon or magic item. Since we play with followers and hirelings anything we find that we can't use usually gets picked for a minion. Rarely do we sell magical things, and then these things don't produce buckets of gold when the profits are split 6 ways.


We use the 2nd Edition rules for magic item creation. It takes alot of hunting and time to create magic items. Not a spell, some gold and a few weeks. I just think it makes magic mean more. When we start at 5 or higher and get to pick items its a big deal because we usually start at level 1.

[Meschaelene]

I had a GM who took special care to make sure our treasure was terrible. Honestly, we got multiple suits of +1 half-plate, magical weapons in which no one had proficiency (Dwarven Urgosh), etc. The campaign revolved around an intelligent magic sword that had a special purpose -- to destroy evil magic swords. Of course, it could neither detect evil nor magic, so it attempted to force a sunder attempt on every sword. That's right -- its special purpose was to destroy our treasure...

All of this so that he could meet the letter of the treasure guidelines without actually giving anything out. Of course, most of us were far more experienced gamers than he, and we also knew several fun loopholes. We made a mockery of his game, and completely failed to feel bad about it.

When I run, I usually ask for a wish list -- and those items normally appear... If it's something special, they might need to quest for it or commission it.

[PinkysBrain]

I enjoy playing in low-wealth/magic games and usually run the same. It seems to make victories more memorable and balances some classes against others.

By balance you mean that casters get even stronger and non casters get even weaker? Or in other words, an extension of the Core definition of Balance :)

[ghost_warlock]

and i must say, i find it a lot more likely that the party hire some local sage to craft their weapons, than that they just happen to "find" gear that maches their need every once in a while.

Seconded (or thirded, or whatever). Being able to purchase the items a player wants for his character makes 100% more sense than just happening to find exactly what he was looking for lying around in a dungeon.

In my games, I very rarely plant items specifically for a character unless they're a [plot]-item. I expect the party to hoc a good amount of what they find in order to purchase of craft the stuff they really want.

[The Prince of Cats]

I let my party buy any of the basic potions (though they only ever buy healing potions) or scrolls of lvl 1 spells in any village with a temple, a mage-guild or an apothecary. Large towns might have +1 weapons and armour. If they want something more, they need to go and find a crafter specifically and order it. Sometimes, there will be a handful of magical items in a large town with more than +1 and/or specific enchantments (rolls as minor magic items).

If the want to travel to a place like Waterdeep or Calimport, then they can pick anything up to +2 value after a short search and maybe some bribes and/or persuasion checks. This is also the kind of place where shops might have a few items from the medium magic items list. Anything more and they can order it in.

They can try Thay, if they are feeling brave...

Starting characters above level 1, I let them choose one big item, not worth more than half the WBL. After about level 6, I let them choose what they want up to the WBL value, but anything magical has to be run by me first. I tend to recommend things like Quivers of Elhonna, bags of holding, silvered back-up weapons, maybe a metamagic rod. They tend to buy +2 weapons and armour, then complain that they are not doing enough spell damage or that they can't kill the werewolves...

[PinkysBrain]

The problem with commissioned item creation at high levels is that few campaigns can put the story on hold for the month(s) it takes to finish the item. By the time it's finished the campaign is likely to be over.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The problem with commissioned item creation at high levels is that few campaigns can put the story on hold for the month(s) it takes to finish the item. By the time it's finished the campaign is likely to be over.

Maybe if your campaigns require the story to be fast paced. But it's certainly reasonable the bad guys need to spend just as much time to work on their plans (maybe even crafting a few magic items as well) as the PCs need.

[PinkysBrain]

As I said, few campaigns. Wizards modules, adventures etc usually move a lot faster than that for instance.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

As I said, few campaigns. Wizards modules, adventures etc usually move a lot faster than that for instance.

But then most modules are just an adventure arc rather than an entire campaign (though there are a few notable exceptions—Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, for instance). So there's plenty of room for downtime between modules.

Even in the campaign-sized modules, I'd expect there to be opportunity for some downtime if you look hard enough. When the PCs strike a pretty decisive blow against the bad guys, for instance, they should be able to count on the bad guys needing some time to recover. The PCs are by no means required to press the advantage in such a situation if they feel they need some downtime themselves.

[Erk]

huh, that really interests me. I wonder if my take on it is just from my gaming origins, or what... almost all the GM's I've played with run things similar to how I do.

Re: random items perfectly suiting PC needs turning up: that pretty much never happens in my games. What does turn up somewhat at random are rumours and stories of legendary artifacts that the PCs can hunt after if they want them... and I try not to run those as side plots but as story hooks of their own, when I can (eg. to use OotS as an example, the starmetal is as much a story hook into a plot with the LG as it is a quest for an important bit of magic item); if not they can be fun excuses for a short hike and a dungeon romp for a session or two. And magic items do turn up in other dungeons, they are just usually more generic-use than the fighter's new kickass sword: things I feel the party needs to basically function, or could use and have fun with but probably wouldn't choose on their own.

However, the items they quest for are usually much better than those recommended for their level, particularly if it's the fighter or rogue needing the item (and the noncasters are usually the ones who need to find artifacts. The casters are usually content to make their own wands and stuff, and blast away). So far this hasn't unbalanced things: by the time they're advanced enough to quest for toys, the edge this gives the mundanes keeps them pretty nicely in line with the spellcasters. Yeah, it is a plot stretch that Mr. Fighter who Specialises in Obscure Weapon suddenly hears about a Legendary Weapon similar to his, right around when his starts to get obsolete, but I can usually work it in a little less deus-ex than all that. Certainly less than finding one in a box.

As for commissioning a sage to make an item... sages and NPC's of even close to the players' levels by the time they can afford to get items made are not typically available in my games. If they exist, they are either employed or so uninterested in adventurers that they're inaccessible. That doesn't mean they can't be commissioned, but again it is not a matter of hikin' to the Mage's Guild and paying the guildmaster to put together a few choice toys for you. Finding the crafter would be a small information-gathering quest, getting to him another, getting him to want to help you a third, and getting him the materials he needed a fourth. Probably two or three play sessions right there.

Wow, though... I see why people build their characters around the assumption they can get the magic items they want.

[Oeryn]

I don't have a whole lot to add to the debate, here, but I'm going to have to side with Erk. I'm an old-schooler, myself, and I'm not too excited about the WBL and Ye Olde Magick Shoppe rules. But then, I don't even use the CR rules, so I can't really talk.

I generally allow magic items as the game progresses, but have the players find or earn them. It's probably just having started with 1st Edition, but to me the thrill of having a really cool magical weapon is totally diminished by being able to buy it off the rack. I do my best to set things up to where the items are at least somewhat tailored to my players' characters, and then balance the game accordingly. After all, when the acquisition of items is something you know beforehand, it's not hard to make sure that the PCs can handle what you throw at them.

On one hand, it's a lot harder to pull off, since you have to REALLY know your players, and where they want to go with their characters to do it right. But I generally try to get as far "in the head" of the character as I can, before the game starts, so that I can come up with a lot of compelling reasons for the characters to follow the plot, aside from just wealth and item acquisition.

It doesn't work for everyone, but --for me-- it's a lot more fun, and rewarding as a DM.

[Quietus]

In general, we have a bit of a mixed bag in the campaigns I've played in - generally, when we get to a city, we can purchase pretty much anything we'd like. For example, my wererat rogue recently picked up a collar that could cast Greater Magic Fang at caster level 8 3/day. He didn't have to have it comissioned, I was just able to work out the cost, run it by the DM, and purchase it. Of course, we were in an Elven city where druids are not unheard of, so it makes SOME sense that they would have something like that. I did end up tracking someone down to modify it slightly to have it made with a small peice on it that would have Continual Flame inside of it, which I could adjust so as to entirely block out the light.

Our coolest treasure, however, has always been stuff we found in dungeons - from a couple of white (read : Blessed) bladed swords, to some kind of stone hammer that made clay golems go crazy, to an enormous claw that gave a secondary natural attack for 1d12+str and also gave a +2 str bonus. The stuff we've bought from the stores is generally pretty mundane; +X to this stat, a cloak of resistance, a couple +2 weapons. My collar was the only thing that was an exception to this, as I needed it to keep my natural attacks in hybrid form viable.

[JadedDM]

I think along the same lines as Erk. I, too, come from 2E origins, although I stuck with it. In 2nd Edition, a character cannot even try to craft a magical item until 9th-11th level, and since I run a fairly low level game (where the town hero might be level 5, at best), magical items simply aren't for sale in my games.

Although 2nd Edition is built differently--magical items aren't needed as much. I've run entire campaigns with almost no magical items at all, and it doesn't hurt the game at all, at least at the lower levels (to date, I've never run a game that went past level 8 anyway).

Like in Erk's games, my players tend to quest for the good stuff or otherwise just make do with what they find or loot in their normal journies.

That whole WbL/CR thing is one of the aspects of 3E that turns me off from it.

[Fax Celestis]

Those (gag) Wealth By Level rules certainly would seem to encourage it.

Wealth By Level is a tool, not an ultimatum. Similarly, CR is a tool to determine effective danger to the party. It's a feature that's simply impossible in classless systems and unique to D&D.

[Morty]

Yep, my group doesn't go with "magic shop, buy what you want" thing. Basically if we want to buy something, we've got to do Search checks to find some shop, and when we find it, DM describes what we can find there. Actually, my DM used to be too restrictive about magic items- especially scrolls, that I was totally unable to buy- but I persuaded him to give us a bit more freedom. Even now though, we don't have any wondrous items except of one amulet. The only magic items we have are magical weapons, armor, one ring and aforementioned amulet.

[Counterspin]

I allow people to buy whatever items from the DMG they want because I want to invest the players with as much control over the characters as possible. Particularly late in the game, a character's items play such a large part in their capabilities that I don't see why you would restrict them to only what the GM hands out. D&D is primarily, though not exclusively, a strategic game for me, and how the players equip themselves is a big part of their strategy.

I would also like to agree that cutting down on the availability of magic items only heightens the system's existing balance weaknesses.

[Argent]

Yep, my group doesn't go with "magic shop, buy what you want" thing. Basically if we want to buy something, we've got to do Search checks to find some shop, and when we find it, DM describes what we can find there. Actually, my DM used to be too restrictive about magic items- especially scrolls, that I was totally unable to buy- but I persuaded him to give us a bit more freedom. Even now though, we don't have any wondrous items except of one amulet. The only magic items we have are magical weapons, armor, one ring and aforementioned amulet.

Yup. My DMs are much the same way. It's challenging for two reasons: 1) you're not guaranteed to find any magic item you may want at any given time; and, 2) we generally don't have much time between adventures to craft or commission items. It can be a little frustrating at times, but I figure that's much like real life -- you can't always find exactly what you want at the store any time you walk in. And if we really, really need a commissioned item, we can always schedule time to have one made.

[Arbitrarity]

You people ban artificers of course.



Well, they are artificers after all. And pre-errata, you had that hilarious *snaps fingers* *+5 vorpal longsword appears* "Where'd that come from?" "I'm the artificer. I crafted it."

[Jayabalard]

ponderous items stop being all that wondrous if you can pick them up at any old 7/11...

Magic users have a nice power advantage over their non spell casting brethren... why the hell would they give that up that advantage by cranking out huge quantities of powerful magic items and selling them? They're much more likely to make what they will use, and perhaps a few specific other items with a very limited list of people they are willing to sell to.

Wealth by level is a guideline... not a straitjacket. Nor does using WBL mean that you have to give out magic items worth of wealth, or that they have to be available at all; there are other things of value in the world you know.

I would guess that a good portion (perhaps even the majority) of people who started playing with 1ed D&D or earlier play a much lower powered game than what WOTC seems to be trying to ram down everyone's throat... sure, pumping up the power works for them as a business model, since it's easier to get people hooked on pumped up character power, but it only entertains a very specific type of gamer. Sure, my power level may be over 9000 but that doesn't really entertain me much...

D&D is primarily, though not exclusively, a strategic game for me, and how the players equip themselves is a big part of their strategy.

And dealing with limited resources isn't strategy? In my opinion, being able to equip yourself with virtually no limitations makes for less strategic game; chess has virtually no customization options, and it doesn't suffer from a lack of strategy.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yah jayabalard, I love how you lump anyone who uses the standard WBL in with those who want all their characters to be Saiyan-level powerhouses.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm a huge jerkwad about buyable items. I generally consider mundane items to be rather easy to find in towns of any size. Anything else, even masterwork, depends entirely on what I feel like putting there at the time. And I don't always feel like making those harder to find objects particularly useful to anyone in the party.

Lemme put it another way- in my gestalt campaign, the best anyone had up at level 12 was a +1 weapon of some form and a handful of healing potions. This is the same campaign where I made them fight the Tarrasque at level 6.