Warmage...

[Whiplord]

First post here, although I've been lurking unregistered for about 2 weeks now. Hope you guys can help me.

So, I recently started a campaign, and wanting a combat oriented magic user, noticed Warmage, which seemed good at the time. I am now just realizing that perhaps it wasn't the wisest choice, but it's a bit late to turn back now.

Basically I need advice on what to do with it so I won't fizzle out and become useless. Especially need advice on feat choices, I have absolutely zero clue there.

PrC wise I was thinking of making the most of my higher hit die and armor wearing abilities, and going into something like Havoc Mage, Eldritch Knight, Or Knight Phantom.

Also, which outside spells should I choose with Advanced/Eclectic Learning?

Thank you for any help that may be offered!

[PinkysBrain]

PrC wise I was thinking of making the most of my higher hit die and armor wearing abilities, and going into something like Havoc Mage, Eldritch Knight, Or Knight Phantom.

Arghh, not more warmages!

Seriously, it's a playable class ... but people who play it often don't seem to want to recognize the class for what it is, you are a ranged damage dealer. You are an archer with spells. That is it, that is your strength.

Your ability to ignore ASF? Not a relevant strength.

Your ability to use simple weapons? Not a relevant strength.

So what should you do to be a good warmage? The same thing one should do to be good with any class, play to your strengths. Become even better at blasting.

As for how ... books?

[Whiplord]

Anything is viable. My DM is pretty lenient. Plus I'm just plain curious.

[ghost_warlock]

Knight Phantom isn't too bad, almost complete casting progression with some handy special abilities, but I'm not sure that phantom steed is on your spell list so you might not meet the most crucial prereq.

Some DM's (myself included) allow warmages to learn conjuration spells with their Advanced Learning class feature, though, sometimes from a subset - like [Energy], [Force], and/or (Summoning) spells. You might want to check with your DM to see if that's allowed.

Eclectic Learning

Oh, didn't notice that you'd chosen that variant.

In that case, my advice would be to choose some solid spells that break away from the warmage's typical blaster role. This thread contains some good examples.

[Whiplord]

Thing is, I don't really know what. I suppose if I wanted to take Knight Phantom I could grab phantom steed, but I'm not sure.

[TheOOB]

Warmage is perfectally good class, you just have to remember that in a party you fill the same role as an archer and not the role of an arcane spellcaster. Warmages do lots of realiable damage at a good range, oftentimes affecting a wide area. The damage a warmage brings to the party is useful, killing your enemy faster is never a bad thing no matter how you slice it.

Don't try and be a wizard, you'll fail. You excell at doing damage and casting other combat related spells, to play to your strengths. So long as your party still has a wizard or sorcerer to be the arcane caster, you should be fine as a blaster, and if you don't have a wizard or sorcerer, then you should probally not be playing a warmage. (remember, while wizards and sorcerers can do damage, good ones generally dont focus on it, arcane casters are about utility, not offense).

Also, it should be noted that as a warmage, you will never be better then a wizard, period. A wizard can blast almost as well as you can, and they have a lot of utility to boot. That said, you don't have to be as good as a wizard to be useful to your team. Paladins, rangers, barbarians, and bards are all pretty darn underpowered classes yet people play them and find themselves useful to a group, so you should have no problum, especially since you are a full spellcaster.

[Person_Man]

As you'll probably hear 1000 times, it's a lousy class. Your spell selection is severely limited, and the bonuses you get in return are pretty minor. A regular Sorcerer is far, far better. Heck, a good archer build is usually better.

I would avoid going into any PrC that limits your caster levels. Anything that limits your spells will greatly curtail your power. Getting slightly better melee damage or AC or some random special ability is a fools bargain when traded for higher level spells.

If for whatever reason you decide to go with one, the classic metamagic feats are fine. Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Twin Ray, etc. Just focus on the one thing you do half decently - damage dealing - and you'll be fine.

Just check Crystalkeep, and go to the metamagic section of the feat list.

[Omnipotent_One]

Warmages aren't the best spellcasting class, certainly, but with eclectic learning, and smart playing, they are by no means a burden.

If you want to play a heavily armored tank warmage, i think abjurant champion and eldritch knight fit your bill.

Try playing an aasimar0 (from savage progressions) so you get martial weapon proficiency for free, then go something like:

Warmage6/EldritchKnight9/AbjurantChampion5

You only lose one caster level, and end up with a base attack bonus of +17. Battle caster will let you wear fullplate, and take improved toughness as soon as possible to increase your HP (also, take abjurant champion levels after you take your 2nd eldritch knight level, this gets you more hp early).

[ghost_warlock]

Eldritch knight, frankly, blows when compared to knight phantom. Both give nearly full spellcasting progression and BAB, but knight phantom gives a variety of useful class abilities as well (including enough uses of phantom steed as a spell-like ability to supply your entire party at higher level).

[Shrew]

Can a warmage cast spells from scrolls that are not on their normal list. If so, does this not help with the limited spell selection?

[Whiplord]

They have the advanced learning feature, as well as the variant eclectic learning. Both take effect every 3 levels.

Advanced learning allows you to choose one spell from the evocation school that is not already on your list, up to the highest level spell you can cast.

Eclectic learning is then same idea, but you can select any spell, and you can only take spells of up to one level beneath the highest you can cast.

You choose on or the other every 3 levels.

[Omnipotent_One]

Eldritch knight, frankly, blows when compared to knight phantom. Both give nearly full spellcasting progression and BAB, but knight phantom gives a variety of useful class abilities as well (including enough uses of phantom steed as a spell-like ability to supply your entire party at higher level).

In general, I suppose the knight phantom is superior to the eldritch knight, but I prefer EK in this case for a few reasons:

1. the KP is region specific, the EK is not. While this probably won't matter with a leniant DM, it can create some roleplay headaches.

2. The EK has a net 2 feats over the KP. Not only does the eldritch knight gain a bonus feat at level 1, the knight phantom requires the still spell feat to qualify for the class. Also, the KP requires ride ranks, which is a minor inconvenience.

3. The Warmage already can cast in light armor, so that aspect of the knight phantom is rather worthless.

4. The Warmage doesn't automatically know phantom steed, it needs to learn it through eclectic learning, further delaying entry into the prestige class.

So for a net loss of 2 feats, a few skill ranks, and a few levels in the prestige class, you gain a few more hit points and some phantom abilities. I'd rather go with the eldritch knight.

[TheOOB]

Can a warmage cast spells from scrolls that are not on their normal list. If so, does this not help with the limited spell selection?

In order to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the spell on the spell list, the spell must be of the type(arcane or divine) for the class that has that spell, and your key casting ability for that class must be at least 10 + the scrolls spell level.

That means that warmages gain very little use from scrolls. Since warmages allready know all spells on their class list, and a spell must be on your class list to use a scroll, there isn't much point in scrolls except for additional uses a day, and at that point you might as well get a wand.

The usemagic device skill and/or a single level in another casting class (cleric w/magic domain comes to mind) can do wonders however.

EDIT: You also need the requisite caster level for the scroll, or make a caster level check.

SRD entry for scrolls

[Merlin the Tuna]

I am now just realizing that perhaps it wasn't the wisest choice, but it's a bit late to turn back now.

Well, if you want to be a master blaster, you've come to the right place. If you don't, well, you may wish to strategically send this character off on a personal sidequest while a new character just happens to show up in his place. Alternatively, depending on your level, the Warmage can make a great spontaneous half of an Ultimate Magus.

That aside, the Warmage is hardly an unworkable class. It's certainly not self-sufficient or clever like a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid might be, but then what is? It would help a lot to know what else is in your party and what your levels are, but here's some general stuff.

Those metamagic feats you get for free? Check the listing in your class abilities. If you already have the feat that the Warmage class would grant you, you can pick any other metamagic feat. (It doesn't seem to restrict you to other metamagic feats whose prerequisites you meet, so Sudden Quicken could technically be legal, but your DM likely won't appreciate that kind of maneuvering. If he for some reason doesn't mind, take it as quickly as you can. Alternatively, crack open the Epic Level Handbook and grab Automatic Quicken Spell.) With that in mind, start looking at things that can either spike your damage up more or get it to more folks at once.

That makes Sudden Widen a good pickup for a regular feat, especially since it doesn't have any prerequisites. As soon as you've got a metamagic feat (like Sudden Widen), pick up Sudden Maximize like it's your job. There's absolutely no reason to wait until 20th level for it. That and Sudden Empower (which you can also grab at 1st, 3rd, or 6th level feat slot for if you want more metamagic at 7th) will do you wonders. With those, you can basically nova a few times a day without a whole lot of effort, and the fact that you have all manner of blasting spells means that you'll never get caught with your finger up your butt saying "Man, my maximized fireball won't do anything to this fire elemental." You'll empower an Orb of Cold and end the fight in one shot.

The Warmage's spell list isn't also quite as pathetic as it's often made out to be -- there is some battlefield control to be had. Evard's Black Tentacles is a best in show control spell, and it's yours. Shatter has great utility value. Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill can shut down a lot of folks, too. So with Eclectic Learning, I'd recommend one of two things. Either grab buffs that should be getting cast every encounter (Haste comes to mind immediately) or look for spells with Will saves -- a quick glance over the spell list gives me the impression that you're lacking in that department. Glitterdust is a great one to grab at 6th level - it's an area Will save versus blindness, and takes care of Invisibility, too. Also note the synergy with the previously mentioned Sudden Widen.

I hope that helps. Any more information on you, your group, and your adventure type will help us a lot, so please give whatever you can.

[Whiplord]

Well that post certainly gave me a few ideas. Here's some more info though:

My party consists of the following:

Half orc barbarian - the typical tank
Elven rogue - This guy is our skill monkey/archer. Also, with his bonus dex, he usually goes first.
Human Druid - Typical druid, looks to be going down the wild shape route of things
Human Monk - This player was a cleric, till his person died, and he realized he hated buffing people.
Half Elf Warmage - Me. So far hasn't done much besides cast magic missile due to low chance of hit with RTAs.

Our adventure is heavily combat oriented, as our DM isn't good with much else. But everybody still enjoys it.

[Fourth Tempter]

How many level of Warmage do you have? It may not be too late to suffer some in the short term for long-term benefit by taking Wizard levels and heading into the Ultimate Magus prestige class.

[Whiplord]

5 currently, almost 6.

[Sabattus]

Consider the possibility of taking Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) as a feat. It may take you some effort to get the necessary ranks of Knowledge (Religion), but it does expand your spell list somewhat. Of course, to do so you'll also need either a decent WIS or a WIS-boosting item.

[Darrin]

Basically I need advice on what to do with it so I won't fizzle out and become useless. Especially need advice on feat choices, I have absolutely zero clue there.

Here's a few strategies for salvaging an underpowered Warmage:

1) Pick up bardic music (with a dip into Bard or Virtuoso) and head into Sublime Chord. The requirements are pretty skill-intensive, but there are a few feats that give you Perform as a class skill. Sublime Chord allows you to finish out your last 10 levels essentially as a Sorcerer, and after dipping in for one or two levels, you can finish off your career with a gish-heavy PrC such as Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion.

2) Pick up a level of Swordsage, load up on blaster-friendly Desert Wind maneuvers, and get into Jade Phoenix Mage. Be careful with your caster levels, you don't want to lock yourself out of 9th level spells (Swordsage and JPM = 3 non-caster levels, Warmages get 9th level spells at Caster Level 18). If need be, grab one level of JPM and Virtuoso before 11th level to get into Sublime Chord and get your 9th level spells back.

For feat selections, as someone already pointed out, don't wait on Sudden Empower/Maximize/Widen, pick those up ASAP, and if you get those as class abilities, there are a lot of better metamagic feats you can pick up. One thing you do have to watch out for on the Sudden stuff is it's only usable 1/day... but there's a way around that. If you take the Residual Magic feat, you can "reuse" that Sudden Maximize on the next round.

Recommended Feats:
1st - Sudden Widen
3rd - Sudden Empower
6th - Sudden Maximize
7th - Quicken Spell
9th - Easy Metamagic (Quicken)

[Whiplord]

Here's a few strategies for salvaging an underpowered Warmage:


2) Pick up a level of Swordsage, load up on blaster-friendly Desert Wind maneuvers, and get into Jade Phoenix Mage. Be careful with your caster levels, you don't want to lock yourself out of 9th level spells (Swordsage and JPM = 3 non-caster levels, Warmages get 9th level spells at Caster Level 18). If need be, grab one level of JPM and Virtuoso before 11th level to get into Sublime Chord and get your 9th level spells back.

This option sounds interesting, but I'm confused on the exact level progression you're suggesting.

[Darrin]

This option sounds interesting, but I'm confused on the exact level progression you're suggesting.

If you take three levels without spellcaster progression, you lose 9th level Warmage spells. You can get 9th level spells back by taking Sublime Chord at 11, and then taking at least 8 caster levels after that (such as the last 9 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage, you lose a caster level at JPM 1 and 6, so take JPM 1 early and either stop at JPM 5 and finish with Abjurant Champion or eat the non-caster level at JPM 6). Progression would look something like:

1-5) Warmage 5
6) SwordSage 1, Feat: Flexible Mind of Versatility to make Perform and Knowledge: Arcana as Class Skills, spend skill points on Perform, Listen
7) Jade Phoenix Mage 1, bring Perform up to 10, Intimidate 4, Diplomacy 4
8) Virtuoso 1, spend skill points on Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft
9) Virtuoso 2, 3rd level spells
10) SwordSage 2, need Listen 13, Knowledge Arcana 13, Profession Astrologer 6, Spellcraft 6
11) Sublime Chord 1
12-20) Jade Phoenix Mage 2-10

I'm not sure if you'll have enough skill points, though. Sublime Chord requires a lot of skill ranks, which don't quite overlap with Jade Phoenix Mage or Virtuoso.

[Merlin the Tuna]

That's also incredibly back-loaded (3rd level spells at 9th level? That's worse than a Mystic Theurge!); I wouldn't touch something like that unless the game was starting at about 9th or 10th level. It also won't play even remotely like a Warmage; if that's your goal, you're better off just inventing a reason for the Warmage to go away (vacation, death, clan/organziational responsibilities) and creating a reason for a new character to appear in the group. If you really want to keep the character around but want him to play differently, you can also ask your DM to partake in a rebuild quest.

[Fourth Tempter]

5 currently, almost 6.

Hmm. Well, you could become a Warmage-heavy Ultimate Magus. The trick, here, is to enter the Wizard class at sixth level, and take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You may or may not have to take a second wizard level, but when you enter Ultimate Magus, you should be able to add all the caster levels to Warmage if you do it right. You can use your Wizard spells for much-needed utility and survival (flight and invisibility, for example), as well as to apply metamagic to your Warmage spells--free Twinning goes well with everything.

[Whiplord]

Well for Ultimate Magus, you go up in botn for most levels, but for I think 3, it says "lowest level arcane class", which would apply to wizard.

[Fourth Tempter]

Ultimate Magus is based on caster level; Practiced Spellcaster alters your caster level--as a Warmage 5/Wizard 1 with Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard), you would have caster levels of 5 for both classes.

[Merlin the Tuna]

You need 2nd level preparative casting for UM, I think -- it's designed to be Wizard-heavy on the intake.

And the workaround involves having a bunch of Wiz levels and a Sorc/Beguiler/Warmage level, then using Practiced Spellcaster to jack up the Spontaneous CL. This is a backwards setup -- it won't work as well.

[Toliudar]

If you have a way to keep your wisdom score up, Arcane Disciple is indeed a great way to improve your versatility. Protection, Luck, and Travel domains will all help you stay alive and useful in the archer/blaster role, and the healing domain would be useful in giving your group a backup healer (and one that can go for a WHILE when needed).

[Whiplord]

Ha, wisdom was one of my dump stats. That and str. 25 point buy.

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[Hurlbut]

Ha, wisdom was one of my dump stats. That and str. 25 point buy.

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Okay...a tad bit less wise than your average human eh?

[Whiplord]

Pretty much. Also Half-Elf.

Also, how well would the Elemental Savant work with this? As well, to the recommendation of Quicken Spell, isn't Warmage spontaneous? If so, that renders quicken useless.