A question about prone+levitate.

[F.L.]

To be blunt, can you become prone while levitating? It seems like the +4 AC against ranged attacks would be very nice if you can only be hit by ranged attacks. Further, when levitating and prone (if possible), can you still only use crossbows?

[ocato]

Well, you get +4 AC vs ranged attacks because you're on the ground, I guess. If you are in the air, you're not really such a difficult target anymore. If you're floating on your back, you'd be hardpressed to use weapons easily, I'd wager.

[F.L.]

I really wasn't looking for what made actual sense, I was looking for what the rules say.

[ocato]

Would you be terribly offended if I quoted that in my signature? It's very funny to me.

[F.L.]

Be my guest. Glad you like it.

[Dausuul]

I really wasn't looking for what made actual sense, I was looking for what the rules say.

By RAW? Sure, you can be prone while levitating. You still get the +4 AC versus ranged attacks, the -4 versus melee attacks, the whole shtick. In fact, it might be a real smart tactic for a wizard to levitate and drop prone. As far as I know, there's no limitation on casting while prone, so you could levitate (immune to non-flying melee), fall prone (+4 AC versus ranged), and then cast away.

Of course, that's assuming you have a DM so enamored of the rules as written as to be utterly lost to common sense.

[F.L.]

Well, I suppose you could argue that when going prone in air, you're re-orienting yourself to minimize the cross-sectional area of the target you are with respect to enemy archers. While this can be done in 2 ways (head first, or feet first), I'd assume you'd stick yourself feet-first to make your head safer. Now, you could also argue that you could use the long/shortbow while prone in the air because you've got no ground to interfere with drawing a bow, but by RAW, I don't think you can.

[Matthew]

No, you cannot go Prone whilst Levitating,as far as I can see:

Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Indon]

Levitate the ground under you.

[Ditto]

So drop prone first, then Levitate. You never spent a move-action standing up, so you must still be prone. And I think it makes perfect sense to be prone in the air - you present a much smaller target that way. "The enemy's gate is down!" ...c'mon! ...anybody?

[melchizedek]

Really, this is vague enough that it's going to require clarification by each individual DM. How your DM interprets the rules on this is going to be more important than what we can tell you.

[Yechezkiel]

To be blunt, can you become prone while levitating?

Hahahahahahaha, no.

[Matthew]

So drop prone first, then Levitate. You never spent a move-action standing up, so you must still be prone. And I think it makes perfect sense to be prone in the air - you present a much smaller target that way. "The enemy's gate is down!" ...c'mon! ...anybody?

I doubt it. Once you leave the ground, you're no longer prone. How levitating effects the action to stand up is down to the DM. The condition clearly requires you to be on the ground.

[Closet_Skeleton]

No, you cannot go Prone whilst Levitating,as far as I can see:

Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

So, you just need enough ground to support your weight with you to go prone.

[Jayabalard]

If you're floating on your back, you'd be hardpressed to use weapons easily, I'd wager.

Prone is face down, supine is face up.

prone is on the ground... when levitating you aren't on the ground, so you're no longer prone.

[Spiryt]

Speaking about common sense - i don't think that being prone in air will make you more difficult target. Anyway being in air can make you easier target
for bows, crossbows ec. You will be clearly visible, usually.

I will just stay with on the ground phrase. And draging bow, slashing with sword and other actions could be difficult or even impossible without ground under feet. So better think about catgirls and listen to rules strictly. At least one time they seem sensible

[Matthew]

So, you just need enough ground to support your weight with you to go prone.

How? I don't think that's possible via the Spell.

Levitate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level)
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed).

A levitating creature that attacks with a melee or ranged weapon finds itself increasingly unstable; the first attack has a -1 penalty on attack rolls, the second -2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of -5. A full round spent stabilizing allows the creature to begin again at -1.

Focus
Either a small leather loop or a piece of golden wire bent into a cup shape with a long shank on one end.

[Draz74]

"The enemy's gate is down!" ...c'mon! ...anybody?

Ender's Game of course. Does this really even need to be said anymore? It's almost like asking someone to name your reference for "Luke, I am your father."

[Ditto]

Sadly, not enough people know about Ender's Game.

Is a person being prone on the ground different from a person being prone, lying down on a tabletop? What about lying down on a rooftop? What about lying down on air? Your position is the same, I don't see why the height should matter. An arrow coming down in an arc doesn't particularly care what is underneath of you - it's the difficulty the archer has in rangefinding when all he can see is your face instead of your full profile.

[Assasinater]

Well, I suppose you could argue that when going prone in air, you're re-orienting yourself to minimize the cross-sectional area of the target you are with respect to enemy archers. While this can be done in 2 ways (head first, or feet first), I'd assume you'd stick yourself feet-first to make your head safer. Now, you could also argue that you could use the long/shortbow while prone in the air because you've got no ground to interfere with drawing a bow, but by RAW, I don't think you can.

This way, it makes sense, so I'd allow it.

[Dragonmuncher]

Someone who was prone- that is, horizontal- and levitating would actually seem to me to be MORE of a target.

I'd reference Ender's Game, but Ditto beat me to it... but from a logical standpoint, being spread out while ABOVE someone shooting you would just give them an advantage.


Plus, there's the whole "the character is on the ground" in description of prone.

As to the whole "re-orient yourself so you provide the least amount of profile for archers to target" thing, levitation is an unstable spell. So much so, that you can't even attack without getting a penalty. You really think you have enough control to be able to perfectly point yourself at an attacking archer, and stay there?


I'd rule that if someone levitated a prone target, the target wouldn't get the AC bonuses from being prone anymore, and would just be considered standing in midair.

[Matthew]

Is a person being prone on the ground different from a person being prone, lying down on a tabletop? What about lying down on a rooftop? What about lying down on air? Your position is the same, I don't see why the height should matter. An arrow coming down in an arc doesn't particularly care what is underneath of you - it's the difficulty the archer has in rangefinding when all he can see is your face instead of your full profile.

Well, now we get into a grey area. D&D does not define the word 'ground', but the meaning is fairly clear. I can logically see extending the word 'ground' to encompass various ground like things. Air, however, would not be one of them. From a strictly RAW reading, though, yeah, it has to be the 'ground', how you define that is up to you.

[de-trick]

u could do this but whats stopping you there why not have paladins pushing carts down hills kill people and it would not be his fault

my point is one reasons there are gaps in the rules because they never sat around for months on 1 spell,feat,action, rule, or any thing else to get all the glitches out of it


so yes u can

[melchizedek]

u could do this but whats stopping you there why not have paladins pushing carts down hills kill people and it would not be his fault

my point is one reasons there are gaps in the rules because they never sat around for months on 1 spell,feat,action, rule, or any thing else to get all the glitches out of it


so yes u can

First of all, what? Please take a moment to check the grammar in your post.

Secondly, I don't think the rules are very clear on whether or not you actually can be prone while not on the ground. This is one place where the rules seem to hold up fairly well. If a DM/player wanted to interpret the rules in a way that would allow them to be prone while in the air, they could do so, but a simple reading would imply that you can't.

[de-trick]

i bet it would work with walk on air

[Tobrian]

So drop prone first, then Levitate. You never spent a move-action standing up, so you must still be prone.

Oh come on, that's rules nitpickery bordering on the ridiculous.

"On the ground" means exactly that. And if you want to split hairs, you spend an action casting a spell to levitate. That's similar to standing up.

Otherwise it's like saying there's no rules for breathing, so you can't actually drown if you never try to hold you breath when you fall into the water.

And I think it makes perfect sense to be prone in the air - you present a much smaller target that way.

So you're floating horizontally and the enemy archer stands below you and fires up into your bellybutton. Be my guest.

Unless you want to roll into a ball, but then you can't do anything either.

Sadly, not enough people know about Ender's Game.

Is a person being prone on the ground different from a person being prone, lying down on a tabletop? What about lying down on a rooftop? What about lying down on air? Your position is the same, I don't see why the height should matter. An arrow coming down in an arc doesn't particularly care what is underneath of you - it's the difficulty the archer has in rangefinding when all he can see is your face instead of your full profile.

When you're standing up you present more of a target. Most ranged combat in D&D assumes shooting at relatively close range, not far-shooting in an arc over walls... there's a reason there's special feats for such archery tricks.

If you're in the air, no matter if you're vertical or horizontal or whatever, they can see you much better than if you're lying flat on the ground. GROUND is a solid surface, people. It provides total cover from below. Air? Not so much. (And if there's plants and rocks, you get even more partial cover from an archer standing some way away. If the archer is standing higher than you are, he already gets a bonus from standing higher... it's already in the rules. No need to invent more.)

[Ditto]

Obviously, given points are silly semantics.

"On the ground" means exactly that. And if you want to split hairs, you spend an action casting a spell to levitate. That's similar to standing up.

Casting a spell is nothing at all like standing up... I said you needed to take the 'Stand up' action, which is a move action. That doesn't mean I can just take some other unrelated action and sub it in...

The example of breathing is not relevant here - as indicated, there *is* a rule about standing up, (If you didn't stand up, you're still prone, wherever you are) and it seems to defy logic a bit.

So you're floating horizontally and the enemy archer stands below you and fires up into your bellybutton. Be my guest.

This point is irrelevant here. The rules were written with the idea of two guys facing each other at 50 paces (or the like) and they are thus limited to that context until there is some exposition beyond the RAW. Think about it... If you are an archer standing on a tower above the person, and they drop prone, they *still* get +4 to AC even though they're providing a larger outline. As you say, the archer gets a bonus for standing higher, but that's a different kind of bonus. Point is, they're (physically) exposing themselves to you more and still getting a bonus out of it. What's the difference if they are levitating, prone, and you're on the top of the tower still? It's all shooting down.

Standing up regularly when being attacked from above is logically better than lying down, but mechanically worse. Yes, orientation rules are needed to mesh the RAW with common sense. Which person is above or below the other doesn't matter, because all discussion must take place under the assumed base condition of people shooting in (yes, sadly) straight lines.

Also, everyone is assuming that levitation means you're trying to get above your opponent. Why? Let's say I'm levitating, prone, two feet off of the ground. Y'know, we could even say the ground is lava or something. (That's a great game.) I'm still in the same square. You can't get beneath me and shoot at my belly. Unless you come right up to me, all you see is my forward profile. Once you get next to me, so you can look down at my back and see my full profile - oh wait, you're in melee now! And you get a bonus!

[Matthew]

Whilst what you say is logically right, the RAW is clear. Lying down does not equal being prone. Being Prone (the Condition) requires that Character to be on the ground. Defining 'ground' is where it becomes a matter of interpretation, but the actual orientation of the Character relative to his opponents doesn't matter. Stupid? Yes, but the RAW rarely stands up to every possible permutation. Circumstance Bonuses are probably your best bet for getting the RAW to model this sort of thing (as the DMG seems to recommend). Interestingly, the 3.0 DMG does draw a distinction between direct and indirect fire for ranged weapons (The Long Bow, for instance, has a direct firing range of 100').