Help me convince my bad DM

[raistlin807]

Ok, here's the situation; we have a guy who has been DMing our group for a few years and he's ok. He's an awkward speaker and is hard to understand at times but he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the books and no one else wants the job yet. He has come to the conclusion that high level campaigns are a waste of time and has therefore resolved to keep our charachters as low level as possible. When we get to around 5th level he usually 'looses' our sheets. This is becoming a REAL pet peeve of mine and I am not quite sure how to approach it (I have a penalty to diplomacy in real life) any ideas how I can convince this guy to change his evil ways?

[dj2145]

Kill him and stuff his body in the closet. When he starts to stink blame the dog.

Or, if your not the murderous type (sissies), try a change of pace. The best way to get a DM-rules lawyer off his horse is to offer to run a short campaign using another system that is different from D&D or just a different setting, maybe Star Wars or D20 Modern. This gives you a chance to demonstrate your own talents as a DM and, if he objects, makes him look like a power hungry munchkin.

I still prefer the killing thing but I guess I'm a bit Belkarish in nature.

Good luck!

DJ

[Piccamo]

Ok, here's the situation; we have a guy who has been DMing our group for a few years and he's ok. He's an awkward speaker and is hard to understand at times but he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the books and no one else wants the job yet. He has come to the conclusion that high level campaigns are a waste of time and has therefore resolved to keep our charachters as low level as possible. When we get to around 5th level he usually 'looses' our sheets. This is becoming a REAL pet peeve of mine and I am not quite sure how to approach it (I have a penalty to diplomacy in real life) any ideas how I can convince this guy to change his evil ways?

Ask if you can keep your own character sheets or make a copy.

[Jayabalard]

You can DM your own game, and do it the way that you want to; or you can deal with the fact that he isn't interested in GMin a high power game. Those seem to be the primary options.

[Green Bean]

Keeping your own copy of the character sheets would be the best solution. Or, if you prefer a more work intensive solution, volunteer to DM a one-shot high level campaign (say levels 10-12). You know, something short and sweet to show him high level isn't all bad and that maybe you can keep sheets for characters beyond level 5.

[Mr Croup]

First off, you could simply make a copy of the character sheets so that if they're "lost" again you have a back up. If he has an issue with this, call him on it. Ask him why. Express that as the situation has come up before, and you and the other players have put so much effort into your characters, that you'd hate to see it happen again.

Honestly though, I'd talk with the rest of the group about it, see if it's something that is bothering everyone, and then speak with the DM either individually, or preferably as a group. Let him know that you're interested in playing through a higher level game. If he says that he isn't interested in it, then I'd suggest taking a break from the current situation. Run a different game yourself, either a different system or setting, or if a DnD game, you could run one starting at slightly higher levels. Let him see that it's possible, and that fun can be had in doing so. Then, see if he's interested in running again. If not, then it's probably time to find another DM who is more in line with your desired play style.

[Telonius]

Passive-aggressive DMming is not fun for anybody. Ask him to plan adventures for only 5 or 6 levels, that way he doesn't have to lie about it.

[Stevenson]

Ask him why he hates DMing high levels.

If it's a valid reason, then accept it. If not, then explain that his reason is invalid, and he should either think of a better one, or stop this madness.

[Twilight Jack]

Tell him he doesn't have to lie to kick it.

EDIT: Honestly, confront him on his boo-shee. If he doesn't cop to it or at least debate the point with you maturely, then find someone else to DM. You can't fix dysfunctional people, you can just choose not to associate with them.

[Pauwel]

Why doesn't he just say "You can't level up past 5"? Some wouldn't like it, but it's certainly better than obviously lying and restarting campaigns all the time.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

He sounds like a poor DM, honestly. A rules lawyer that can't tell a good story and is prone to lying isn't a good DM. The worst part is that talking to him about it might just piss him off. Depends on the guy. You might as well try, though. If he does take offense and kick you out, then you ought to be happy enough knowing that there wasn't much reason to stick around in the first place. Then search out a new group.

[Elliot Kane]

I had a GM like this, once. He wasn't so dishonest as to lose the sheets, he just gave out miniscule amounts of experience and would start a new game any time the characters got much above third level.

He said he hated GMing above that point, but as he never tried it it's hard to see how he could know. The truth was, I think, that he didn't really feel he could handle it.

If this is the case here - that your GM feels he cannot cope above fifth level - then the only thing you can do is to get someone else to GM for a while. Your current GM may not mind playing at levels he would not GM, after all.

In any case, you should speak to the rest of your group, then speak to your GM AS a group - but gently. There's no need to hurt the guy, who I'd guess is a friend. Just let him know you'd all like to try higher level play for a while.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Just ask him what he doesn't like about running a mid to high level campaign, and see if you can fix the problem, or compromise.

Or kill him, as was said by dj2145!

[Toliudar]

I agree that the DM's reluctance to run mid-high level campaigns is probably coming from fear - loss of control, loss of balance, loss of status as the guy who knows everything about the rules.

I guess I'd suggest being open and positive about your interest in a higher-level campaign with him as possible. It's not the end of the world if you have to pause so that he can look up that fourth level spell you've never cast before. Or figure out how spell resistance works, because he's never had to use it.

Higher level campaigns ARE more work, though. There are a lot more variables, and spellcasters are in particular notoriously difficult to predict. He sounds like the kind of guy who needs to RUN things. Until he finds out it can be just as much fun to completely lose the thread and be boggled by the players' actions...it's going to be hard.

[Elliot Kane]

More fun if you ask me! I always figured if I could predict everything my players would do, it was one heck of a disappointing session! :)

[togapika]

Dude, just make sure everyone has a copy of their own sheets and keeps them, so if the dm "loses" them you can whip out the 5 or 6 copies you have stored.
AKA Grow Some.. and make sure he understands this isn't cool

[Tormsskull]

I agree that the DM's reluctance to run mid-high level campaigns is probably coming from fear - loss of control, loss of balance, loss of status as the guy who knows everything about the rules.

I'll second this. Also, as players you could try to help your DM out by making balanced characters that avoid the powergrabs (search the forums for a list of banned spells, there are quite a few versions floating around, and that'd be a good start). If, as a player, you know that you could totally take control of the campaign by making X choice or obtaining X item, don't.

If I had to guess I'd say your DM probably had bad experiences with a previous group that got to higher levels.

[Ethdred]

Definitely do this as a group - find out what the others think, and then approach him as a group. Do not make this personal. Explain why you don't like him 'losing' the character sheets. Try to find out what his problem is, and what sort of solution would be acceptable for him - is he OK with someone else taking the characters on past 5th level? Does he have a problem with some aspect of eg the magic system at those levels, which can be house ruled away - maybe his problem is he knows the rules so well he can't get past them. One of my DMs doesn't like having to handle Divination spells, so we've junked them all from the system. We even let him get rid of Fly mid-campaign. (He's finicky, but we like him!)

You could even fix up some system of alternating who DMs, so he can run a low level campaign and someone else run a higher level. Especially if you frame it as 'so-and-so wants to learn how to DM. How about giving him a go, but he'd really appreciate it if you give him some advice.' (This does mean that someone has to step up to DM, but that's not a bad thing - maybe there's someone in your group who's about ready but just needs the push.)

[Indon]

Passive-aggressive DMming is not fun for anybody. Ask him to plan adventures for only 5 or 6 levels, that way he doesn't have to lie about it.

What the people who have said this have said.

[hewhosaysfish]

Definitely do this as a group - find out what the others think, and then approach him as a group. Do not make this personal.

On the other hand, if he does - as others have suggested - like to feel in control of the game then try not to look as if your "ganging up" on him. Maybe get the other opinions first but talk to the guy one to one.

Your objectives in talking to him should be:
1) Make him grow a pair and be open. He should say "This game is only going to 5th level" not this "This game is going to 10th level, whoops where are your sheets?" nonsense.
2) Gently cajoling him into running a game above 5th level, see if he can cope with it/learn to like it. Obviously you can't make him do anything he doesn't want to (or at least you shouldn't).
3) If 2 fails, sound him out for a campaign DMed by someone else.

[lillitheris]

Club him like a baby seal, steal his wallet and order pizza for the new DM.

Honestly, the 'losing' of the character sheets is just very uncool. It's amazingly dishonest to 'lose' people's hard work simply because he feels uncomfortable or unable to run something past level 5.

1. Make copies, several if need be.
2. Talk to the group, make sure you're not alone.
3. Select a representative for the group to talk to him, so he doesn't feel ganged up on.
4. Suggest a one-shot of a higher level campaign.
5. If he doesn't dig that, then suggest someone else run.
6. If none of this works, I revert to my initial suggestion, club him like a baby seal, steal his wallet and order pizza for the new DM.

[manda_babylon]

Is it common for GMs to keep the players' sheets? In my group, we all keep our own sheets, and we're responsible for any written materials that we will need [special books, descriptions of weapons, feats, prestige classes, etc.] that the GM doesn't have.

If a player leaves their sheet at home for a session, they play without it, based on how well they remember their character. The GM has a list of all of their stats, so they know what their modifiers should be, and we are all pretty aware of what each others' characters can do. If you lose your character sheet forever, you rebuild from memory, since the GM has the stats, or you remember them. If the GM loses the sheet and you forget, then reroll from scratch.

[TheThan]

Passive-aggressive DMming is not fun for anybody. Ask him to plan adventures for only 5 or 6 levels, that way he doesn't have to lie about it.

This is probably the best and most sensible solution, next to killing the guy and stuffing him in a closet.