Which is worse (3.5 gish vs 2.x Kensai/Mage)

[Ramza00]

I never played 2.x rules, and am just starting Baldur Gate with a Kensai/Mage dual class. For the people who played both rules and have experience with them. Which is worse from a game balance perspective (aka skewing the game balance compared to other classes)

a 3.5 gish (lets say a Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9)
vs
a 2.x Kensai/Mage dual class (Kensai in 2.x is a fighter kit where you are weapon specialist who has so focused on your weapon you no longer wear armor and get benefits compared to fighter due to be unarmored).

Due to how Dualclassing works combine with 2.x experience rules (each class have their own level up table based off xp, mages have the slowest progression) a Kensai/Mage will only be 1 or 2 levels behind a normal Mage even though he has several more Kensai levels.

I also don't know of this Kit since I didn't play 2nd edition but Bladesinger was also another "gish" type kit.

Also any other 2nd edition Gish type kits will you mind listing, classic gamers

[Lemur]

Wait, are you multi- or dual- classing? I'm a bit confused here. This is Baldur's Gate II (BG 1 didn't have kits), so you can't add kits to multi-class characters to my knowledge (maybe you can with a character editor, I'm not sure).

So that means you'd have to be dual classing (i.e. human only) starting with a Kensai, then dual classing into Mage. Once you dual class, you no longer gain levels in the previous class (kensai, in this case). Essentially, you're a mage from now on, with the abilities of an X level kensai, where X is the level of kensai you were when you dual classed. Also, when you dual class, you're new class starts at level 1, so you'd have to work your way up from a level 1 mage for a while.

[Ramza00]

Wait, are you multi- or dual- classing? I'm a bit confused here. This is Baldur's Gate II (BG 1 didn't have kits), so you can't add kits to multi-class characters to my knowledge (maybe you can with a character editor, I'm not sure).

So that means you'd have to be dual classing (i.e. human only) starting with a Kensai, then dual classing into Mage. Once you dual class, you no longer gain levels in the previous class (kensai, in this case). Essentially, you're a mage from now on, with the abilities of an X level kensai, where X is the level of kensai you were when you dual classed. Also, when you dual class, you're new class starts at level 1, so you'd have to work your way up from a level 1 mage for a while.

Correct

I am human, I started as a Kensai (since you can only do a kit at the start of the game)

Went up to 9th lvl (supposedly 9th and 13th lvl are the best time to switch) as a Kensai

Then I switched over for Mage. I lost my Kensai abilities till I surpassed my Kensai level with my Mage Level. Since you start Baldur Gate 2 at like lvl 7, and you can gain xp from scrolls and save quests (you do the quest as a kensai but you don't talk to a person to "complete" the quest till you are a mage) it was quite easy to catch up.

I wouldn't imagine how horrible the catching up will be from a 13th lvl perspective. Sure it may be more ultimal in the long run, but it would be very hard till you have "caught up" as a mage and then became a fully dual character.

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That said this thread isn't to talk about my specific experience so far in Baldur Gate, it is to talk about how the gish archetype (a fighter/mage who uses magic to become better at melee) compares to other classes in balance in 2nd edition compared to 3.5.

For example I brought up the bladesinger which isn't in baldur gate 2 if I recall.

[LotharBot]

In BG2, the Kensai-mage, berserker-cleric, and berserker-druid essentially make you equal to a full fighter AND a full caster. You don't get quite as many attacks as a full fighter and you don't get access to high level fighter abilities like Whirlwind Attack, but you gain a whole lot more. (BTW another favorite build is the wizard slayer - thief. Once you get Use Any Item, the Wizard Slayer no magic rings restriction disappears.) You're essentially making a full caster with 150 hitpoints instead of 30, the ability to overrun stuff in melee, and generally better weapon proficiencies. All for a cost of about 30,000 XP -- which is about half a quest late in the game. (Recommendation: never wait to level 13 for a kensai-mage unless you want to be underpowered for a LONG time. Wait for level 9 at the latest. The extra half an attack or whatever it is you get at 13 just isn't worth the mid-game underpoweredness.)

In 3.x, your gish builds are generally a reasonable mix -- you're a fair distance behind full casters, but you've got enough interesting abilities to add to your fighteresque base that you're fun to play.

I don't think there's any comparison. BG2 powergamers play a party of 2 kensai-mages, a berserker-cleric, a berserker-druid, a wiz slayer-thief, and one other character (I prefer an inquisitor for the uber dispel magic.) That's simply the win button. 3.x powergamers play full casters, and rarely touch gish builds.

[Ramza00]

I don't think there's any comparison. BG2 powergamers play a party of 2 kensai-mages, a berserker-cleric, a berserker-druid, a wiz slayer-thief, and one other character (I prefer an inquisitor for the uber dispel magic.) That's simply the win button. 3.x powergamers play full casters, and rarely touch gish builds.

Unless you are playing multiplayer or using an editor you can only have 1 "custom" character. Icewind Dale which runs the same engine (Icewind Dale 2 also uses the same engine but 3.0 rules) allows you to control all your characters, but I don't know if you have the same kit/character options.

Great Idea on the Mage Slayer/Thief. I may need to play that on a second go a round, just to do something that is completely opposite of 3.x

Also mentioning any differences in this area between 2.x and Baldur Gate will be appreciated, we don't have to limit it to Baldur Gate. 2.x has far more kits and options.

[LotharBot]

Unless you are playing multiplayer or using an editor you can only have 1 "custom" character.

One of the startup tips the game gives is that if you want to play multiple custom characters you can play multiplayer. I assume all "true powergamers" will use this, because your own custom character will simply dominate any of the normally-available NPC's.

Gish builds are the best way to dominate in BG2... if you're really powergaming BG2, you'll fill a party with them (with perhaps one utility character.) Gish builds don't dominate 3.x, and in fact are normally a little bit behind the curve. If you're really powergaming 3.x, you won't touch them; you'll play a party with all full casters and broken PrC's.

[F.L.]

I had a Kensai15/Thief 20something in BGII. That kicked butt. (Though Throne Of Bhaal was used as well). Getting 5 attacks per round, backstabs, and the epic ability use any item really was terrible. I could activate a ring of improved haste to up my attacks to 10/round, use ki strike and assasinate abilities, and do 10 maximized 5x backstabs on enemies. Oh, and I could use any scroll and plate mail. Finally, the ultimate in fun cheese was using a Simulacrum item to make a duplicate of myself with my scrolls in it's quickslots, namely scrolls of immunity to magic, project image, and simulacrum, so the simulacrum could make an image, and the images could make simulacrums, so I could wind up with about 15 of me (though they're all at 60% of my level), and I could use my horde of assassins on anybody.

[SurlySeraph]

^I remember the Simulacrum bug. Did you also take advantage of the Displacement bug, the one that lets you backstab indefinitely? Really, the gish builds in BGII were pretty much all pretty much broken. I don't know about the rest of 2nd edition, but I assume it was the same way.

[F.L.]

No. I wasn't aware of displacement, and most combats lasted too short to take advantage of more than 2-3 sneak attacks. Plus 5-10 attacks per round. Plus assassination, so they can all be sneak attacks. Not quite as much damage as the "Deathbringer Assault" power on a single hit, but close. Regardless, the blood explosion happened fast enough to not require micromanagement.

[Matthew]

The Baldur's Gate series is an imperfect representation of (A)D&D 2.x. Don't go by what is possible in this CRPG when attempting to measure relative power between the two systems (Kensai is not even a published Kit, as far as I am aware). That said, Dual Class and Multi Class Characters were generally considered to be more powerful (and also munchkiny) than any other type.