Madness in Cosmic Horror

[ThinkMinty]

I had a strange little idea about cosmic horror. What if being insane meant the monsters couldn't hurt you? They can't steal sanity if you don't have any to spare beforehand, I suppose.

[Frozen_Feet]

That would be backwards.

"Weird things make you insane!" Is not the nature of cosmic horror; "there are things, real things, before which you are but an ant" is.

Insanity, if it appears at all, is a wound caused by that revelation; not a defense from it. In cosmic horror, the things out there do not care of your delusions.

[ThinkMinty]

That would be backwards.

"Weird things make you insane!" Is not the nature of cosmic horror; "there are things, real things, before which you are but an ant" is.

Insanity, if it appears at all, is a wound caused by that revelation; not a defense from it. In cosmic horror, the things out there do not care of your delusions.

I figured someone with a looser grasp on normal might be more willing to go, "Well I'm an ant then.", then try to make ant sounds, then continue the quest, whereas someone well-adjusted might need to adjust some more. It's a weird notion, but I thought it might make some amount of sense.

[Frozen_Feet]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Whether it's a shoggoth trying to tear your head off, a night gaunt coming to fetch you to some alien realm, a pack of ghouls looking for fresh meat or merely an ordinary robber demanding your wallet, it's incredibly unlikely for any delusion or mental disorder to make you less vulnerable to them.

Wrong conception of reality might prevent you from realizing the full implications of what happened to you, but not going insane from the revelation is of no benefit to someone who is already insane. At best, you return to your society as dysfunctional as you already were; at worst, your inability to comprehend what you're facing will further open you up to their predations.

[Hawkstar]

The thing about cosmic horror is it doesn't take place in a fantasy world. It takes place in the real world, and there's nothing supernatural at all. Anyone who believes otherwise is crazy.

[Raimun]

Yeah. The thing is, the objective of cosmic horror monsters isn't to make you insane or steal your sanity. Sure, they might make you insane anyway if you interact with them but that's not what they are after, instead it's... well, who knows and the point of these stories it's better that you don't know.

However, I could imagine some certain type of cosmic monster that could operate like that. Not something like the deep ones, of course but something more akin to color out of space (not exactly that either, just bear with me). With that I mean a "creature" that is utterly alien to us, with no real physical body. Instead, it would inhabit "the world of ideas" (or something similar), either fully or just perceive its surroundings via this "world". Normal human beings would be fascinating to it but if you were "cthulhu-insane", it would view you more along the lines of rotten, spoiled meat and lose interest. A stable mind would be like a prime cut for it and it would figuratively tear it to shreds.

[Dalebert]

Normal human beings would be fascinating to it but if you were "cthulhu-insane", it would view you more along the lines of rotten, spoiled meat and lose interest. A stable mind would be like a prime cut for it and it would figuratively tear it to shreds.

You mean like Glory from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

[awa]

it depends on the type of insanity and the type of trigger. For example i could easily see someone who gets sufficiently jaded or lacking in empathy to be able to ignore certain types of sanity loss.

Easy example the sight of man eating ghouls devouring a victim should have less impact on a cannibal who has engaged in regular combat then on a typical person.

It also depends on the type of game you are trying to run say in comic books i would expect many depictions of the joker to be able to shrug off a glimpse of the unknown that could break a man of sounder mind.

But in a typical cosmic horror setting the mad are more susceptible to these influences not less.

edit (i assume you mean cat hurt you mentally, i don't think being insane should protect you from being stepped on)

[Orcus The Vile]

They don't "drain" your sanity.

You lose sanity just by looking at them because you realize that all you know is a lie and the futility of your meaningless existence.

[Mastikator]

A thing that actually would steal sanity would be something like a ghost or evil spirit. I suppose you could be immune by starting out insane, but really the same can be said about starting out dead; they can't kill you if you start out dead. The problem in both cases is that you're not functioning.

Edit- as has been pointed out the cosmic horrors don't actively cause insanity, it's the realization of them that causes insanity. The ways I can imagine you being less affected is if you refuse to believe in spite of all evidence or if you are not bothered by the implications. But being either willingly ignorant or depressingly nihilistic are not really great options in my opinion. Then again you're not really supposed to have great options in horror, you're supposed to be helpless and doomed.

[Raimun]

You mean like Glory from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

I have no idea who Glory is. I've only watched the first few seasons of Buffy.

I was just speculating what kind of cosmic horror monster would leave insane people alone.

Now that I think about it, other type of monster that would be even more likely to do that would be an actual personification/avatar of insanity. The monster won't attack insane people... because they are effectively on its side.

[DoomHat]

A major problem here is that "madness" isn't really one thing. Nor is it a binary state.

People who are wildly mentally unbalanced, be they delusional, emotionally unstable, or cognitively challenged in some way would likely be no more immune to the effects of a Madness Elemental then someone with a knife stuck in them would be immune to the powers of a God of Wounds. Similarly, I don't imagine that someone with a case of cholera could walk away unscathed from an encounter with an Avatar of Plagues.

[Raimun]

A major problem here is that "madness" isn't really one thing. Nor is it a binary state.

People who are wildly mentally unbalanced, be they delusional, emotionally unstable, or cognitively challenged in some way would likely be no more immune to the effects of a Madness Elemental then someone with a knife stuck in them would be immune to the powers of a God of Wounds. Similarly, I don't imagine that someone with a case of cholera could walk away unscathed from an encounter with an Avatar of Plagues.

Yeah. That sounds reasonable.

However, beings of pure madness aren't reasonable.

[BeerMug Paladin]

The underlying concept of a Cthulhu Mythos type being doesn't have to strictly make sense in any real world context. You can't expect to make sense of the world, that's the whole point. It could be that something eats sanity or mental stability directly, as suggested, so it doesn't have any interest in low/no sanity people.

For a slightly different approach, consider Vampire: The Masquerade's concept of paths. This thing might only be interested in minds that are on the path of humanity. The higher the state of the individual, the more appealing. All the other paths (though they can be functional as individuals) would make you more or less insane so you would be of no interest to this thing.

Of course, one way that the 'eating' of sanity could occur is by contacting and giving the individual spells to use for their own ends. After all, spells drain sanity in the game. That could be what the spellcasting cost actually comes from. All you have to do is give someone a useful tool, and their eventual need/desire for its use will ensure a meal at some point.

[Grek]

Ok, what's usually called "madness" in cosmic horror is actually better thought of in terms of despair. The thing that drives you "mad" isn't the fact that you are being chased by a giant amoebic blob monster, but that the blob monsters are simultaneously the progenitors of all cellular life on Earth and originally designed by aliens to be used as construction equipment. You've not become dissociated with reality or less capable of rational thought, its just that you've realized that life holds no higher purpose and that in the grand scheme of things you're really just something growing in cthulhu's neighbor's old tubberware in the back of the fridge.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Show

This is the plot to Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness"

[DoomHat]

Ok, what's usually called "madness" in cosmic horror is actually better thought of in terms of despair. The thing that drives you "mad" isn't the fact that you are being chased by a giant amoebic blob monster, but that the blob monsters are simultaneously the progenitors of all cellular life on Earth and originally designed by aliens to be used as construction equipment. You've not become dissociated with reality or less capable of rational thought, its just that you've realized that life holds no higher purpose and that in the grand scheme of things you're really just something growing in cthulhu's neighbor's old tubberware in the back of the fridge.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Show

This is the plot to Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness"

Also, you're all too keenly aware that by poking around in that dead alien city, you've provoked the unstoppable semi-organic construction equipment that was dormant there to stir. They may potentially move out soon to consume everything. Worse, the hyper intelligent interstellar plant monsters that created said unstoppable death goo are already loose in the earth's oceans, preparing to do... any number of things, few of them good.

[mikeejimbo]

They don't "drain" your sanity.

You lose sanity just by looking at them because you realize that all you know is a lie and the futility of your meaningless existence.

Which incidentally illustrates that really, these things don't make you insane, you were already insane to think that you had any meaning or purpose.

[Raimun]

Which incidentally illustrates that really, these things don't make you insane, you were already insane to think that you had any meaning or purpose.

If the reverse is sanity, it pays to be insane.

[goto124]

I've since taken that sanity is some sort of positive energy, and the monsters literally drain positive energy out of you.

[mikeejimbo]

If the reverse is sanity, it pays to be insane.

Well the other things that have been brought up, that there are different kinds of madness, is also still a fair point.

[Hawkstar]

Which incidentally illustrates that really, these things don't make you insane, you were already insane to think that you had any meaning or purpose.

I think that was a theme of Lovecraft's work...

[Raimun]

Well the other things that have been brought up, that there are different kinds of madness, is also still a fair point.

Heh, okay, it pays to be insane in a certain way out of all the possibilities.

Besides, if everything is meaningless, it's a high time to introduce some meaning.

[Segev]

Were I trying to design a game with a madness mechanic, I'd seek to make behaving in alignment with the madness tempting to the PLAYER. The stress points that represent exposure to madness-inducing things are eliminated or alleviated by performing OCD rituals. The voices you hear give good advice, so seeking them out is useful (though sometimes deceptive). That alternate personality that comes out when you let go gets things DONE...albeit with a skewed moral compass.

The more madness they accumulate, the more you ... OFFER ... them, for behaving in alignment with it. Until it gets to a point where they rely on it, and you can make their refusal to rely on it cost them.



THis is, incidentally, roughly how I'd run any taint-style mechanic, from "corrupting evil" to "drug addiction." At first, it's advantageous, and behaviors in alignment with it can mitigate any of the disadvantages. Later, the disadvantages are crippling if you DON'T use it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Interestingly Unknown Armies had a version of what the OP proposed. You had 5 madness gauges and as you filled them up you could get hardness notches that made you immune to stressed below a certain threshold. The game makes it clear that collecting these leaves a deep psychological scar on the person that needs to be treated.

[Hybridartifacts]

I imagine there could be a significant difference between 'cant' and won't' hurt you. In Cthulhu insane cultists can still easily be hurt by mythos beings, but because they are generally serving them are not (well, not much of the time at least - those guys can be capricious).

The advantage gained by insanity is knowledge and insight because the two are intimately related - you get the knowledge and insight and it drives you insane... so there is a sort of benefit from madness there as well, its just a two-edged sword.