Genesis Question

[Gralamin]

I have a question about the spell Genesis, or alternatively, the psionic power Genesis.

The question is simply: Can you set the time trait of the plane? I would assume so, then I ran into this

greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

* Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
* Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
* Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
* Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

No deity under greater can touch a planes time trait, which leads me to believe its beyond the scope of a level 9 spell or power. Is it?

Edit: The psionic version states it cannot change the time trait.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You cannot change the time trait since otherwise you could become immortal. When I made this homebrew spell ((http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ht=dislocation) I remember finding evidence that said you couldn't but I can't remember now. The people in that thread said altering the time trait was too powerful anyway.

[Attilargh]

Edit: The psionic version states it cannot change the time trait.

Note that the psionic version also lists a number of restrictions not present in the magical version, and is 4000 experience points cheaper.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Note that the psionic version also lists a number of restrictions not present in the magical version, and is 4000 experience points cheaper.

Which is odd because psionics has a more stronger grasp over time normally.

[PaladinBoy]

As I see it, there are two ways to look at this. It starts with the obvious assumption that the creators of this spell put the limits in the psionic version intentionally.

1) The fact that the arcane version does not have the limits of the psionic verson reflects the creators' desire to allow the arcane version to do these things. Requires assuming that the creators wanted to make the arcane version stronger than the psionic one.

2) The limits included in the psionic version reflect the creators' desire to prevent people from creating a demiplane that was made out of pure platinum or went through a month in 1 round of Material Plane time, and the lack of such limits in the arcane version is a mistake or accident. Requires assuming that the creators didn't check the arcane version before publishing or didn't realize the problems that would result from not writing in the limits.

The second interpretation seems more likely to me. I've seen evidence that WotC can be rather ignorant of game balance concerns, but not evidence that WotC intentionally wrecks game balance. Besides which, the second explanation prevents a lot of exploitation.

[Gralamin]

I agree with the second one. The arcane version appeared in the epic level handbook I believe, while the Psionic one appears in the newer Expanded Psionics. I believe that make the Psionic's one more correct.

[Saph]

Intention-wise, I think it's pretty obvious that they didn't want it to be able to change time.

RAW-wise, it's ambiguous, which means it's the DM's call.

Gameplay-wise, you'd have to be completely insane to allow it, since it gives an almost unbeatable advantage to anyone with access to the spell.

So in practice the answer is a fairly definite no.

- Saph

[Emperor Tippy]

The fact that the Psionic one specifically says that you can't change the time trait is a very strong indication that you could change the time trait with the arcane version.

Otherwise, why would they add that line?

RAW - arguable but it leans a lot more towards it affecting the time trait.

RAI - not allowed

RAU (rules as used) - Not allowed

[Jasdoif]

I don't think changing the time trait is at all reasonable.

The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

I'm having a difficult time seeing the time trait as being a similar factor to atmosphere, water, temperature, and general terrain shape.

I'm led to believe that the restrictions stated in the psionic power are simply explicit statements of what the spell also does not allow, for clarification purposes.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

As I've said before, planar traits are not environmental conditions. By the RAW, neither Genesis version allows alteration of planar traits at all-because the wording in both of them never mentions that you CAN alter planar traits.

This means that Genesis cannot alter/apply Planar Traits since it does not specifically say it can. What the designers of the spell might or might not imply does not really matter by the RAW-so don't listen to anyone trying to apply planar traits in this way. In addition to being impossible by the RAW, it is horribly imbalancing for the game.

[Aquillion]

The magic one only has one line that gives the caster any control over the plane created. It says this:

The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

The question is whether you think that controlling the flow of time or making the entire landscape out of gold is included in factors 'such as' those. I think that, while you could argue (possibly, though no sane DM will allow it) that 'atmosphere' allows for an atmosphere where it rains gold and diamonds and eyes of vecna, there is no reasonable argument to be made that the flow of time falls into the same category as any of those factors. Therefore, I'd say that the magic version definitely cannot control the flow of time.

(Note, as an aside, that if you could manipulate the time parameter, making a plane timeless with respect to magic means that spells would never expire there. There has to be some fun way to exploit that.)

[Saph]

The magic one only has one line that gives the caster any control over the plane created. It says this:
The question is whether you think that controlling the flow of time or making the entire landscape out of gold is included in factors 'such as' those. I think that, while you could argue (possibly, though no sane DM will allow it) that 'atmosphere' allows for an atmosphere where it rains gold and diamonds and eyes of vecna.

Yup. If you allow this, any character can cast Genesis to gain infinite wealth. Or use scrolls of Genesis / Plane Shift for the same effect. Which would lead to hyper-inflation, making gold and other precious metals basically worthless . . . it'd be like the Counterweight Continent in that Terry Pratchett book where even the smallest-value coins are made of solid gold. Better start rewriting the D&D pricing system.

. . . or for those who can't be bothered, like me, just say no in the first place. :)

The fact that the Psionic one specifically says that you can't change the time trait is a very strong indication that you could change the time trait with the arcane version.

Otherwise, why would they add that line?

Presumably because the guy who wrote the Psionics version was being more careful than the one who wrote the arcane version. Or the Psionics writer just had better editors/playtesters.

- Saph

[NullAshton]

It's generally accepted that the arcane version of Genesis allows you to define the time trait on the plane, at least here. Since in all the arguments about level 20 casters > all, people usually if not always have something to do with teleporting to their demiplane where 1 round in material plane equals 24 hours in the demiplane.

Of course, any reasonable DM would rule that the time trait is the same as the material plane. And that's what the rules tend to imply... but apparently as written you can indeed set the time trait.

[Emperor Tippy]

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

Since environment is not defined in the D&D ruels we go to the dictionary definition.

The totality of circumstances surrounding an organism or group of organisms, especially:

1. The combination of external physical conditions that affect and influence the growth, development, and survival of organisms: "We shall never understand the natural environment until we see it as a living organism" (Paul Brooks).

Time and Gravity are defined as physical conditions of a plane.

And the substance that a plane is made of is most assuredly an environmental factor.

As for the limits that the spell puts on, they mean nothing do to the part I bolded. "Such as". That line marks what follows as just suggestions and possible uses for the spell, not the totality of potential uses.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The environment is a specific chapter in the DMG (the last one) as well as a subchapter with terrain types and weather that starts at page 87.

None of those even mention Planar Traits. By the RAW Genesis can only alter anything having to do with the environment. Since Planar Traits are most definitely not in those chapters (they have their own, separate chapter), Genesis can't alter them.

Unless, ofcourse, you can quote anything from the rules that specifically says that it can.

[I_Got_This_Name]

I intepret it as, since the time trait only comes into play when the plane interacts with the outside multiverse, it isn't part of its internal environment. Those parts of the time trait that are internal environment (Timeless with respect to X) would then be changeable, though.

Also, the SRD arcane version was written in 3.0, whereas the psi version is 3.5; when they updated, they closed a lot of the loopholes. The arcane version doesn't mention the time trait because nobody had thought of it when it was written, and Wizards isn't touching the ELH again with an infinitely long pole.

The level 20 "teleport to a better time-stream to rest" usually uses a pre-existing plane, IIRC.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Remember that in 3.5, Planar traits are core. In 3.0 they weren't.

That may have some relevance that I'm too sleepy to think of at present.

[OzymandiasVolt]

So the arcane version should have the same limits as the psionic one, even though the psionic one grows on its own indefinitely and costs 4,000xp less? That's pretty ridiculous.

[Emperor Tippy]

The environment is a specific chapter in the DMG (the last one) as well as a subchapter with terrain types and weather that starts at page 87.

Those chapters only talk about environmental hazards. They are not all possible environmental situations.

None of those even mention Planar Traits. By the RAW Genesis can only alter anything having to do with the environment. Since Planar Traits are most definitely not in those chapters (they have their own, separate chapter), Genesis can't alter them.

Unless, of course, you can quote anything from the rules that specifically says that it can.

Quote me a D&D definition of environment. Or Environmental Traits.

If you can't we go by the dictionary definition. Which is all physical traits.

Time is a physical trait per the DMG.