Help me getting back into D&D

[Ellisar]

Ok, it has been almost two years since my old gaming group split up because we couldnt agree with my DMs houserulings, but the urge to play d&d has now returned, mainly because we are all OOTS fans. As our old DM is the only DM on the island where we live, we have decided to give him another chance. The game we will be playing is a dragonlance campaign during the Age of Mortals, and the following houserules is in place:

1) A 'full round' equals ten minutes if it is a spell casting time, but is a normal full round in all other respects.

2) Characters are not capable of wearing armor for any longer than theit con mod x their level - the armors ACP in minutes, without having to save against fort or drop unconcious from exhaustion. Your carrying capacity is not taken into account. You may carry your armor in your backpack though, and don it in case of an emergency.

3) Magical equipment hardly exists, and to know that it does (a prerequest for wanting to get some) requires a Knowledge (Arcana) roll vs. DC 30. Potions and wands are known to all casters though.

4) Homebrew wealth by level table: A character can expect to accumulate treassure equal to his level x his starting gold in value.

5) Fewer but harder encounters; characters can expect ~0.5 encounters per day, but the encounters we DO find are between +2 and +4 of the partys average level.

My personal preferences:

a) I must be a Silvanesti or Qualinesti elf. I love playing those.

b) I must be able to cast at least a small number of spells.. magic is fun.

c) I must multiclass. I am like Nale in many respects... needless complications is great fun, and I love playing a swiss army PC, with as many special abilities as possible.

d) I must be shamelessly overpowered to compensate for some of the houseruled nerfs. especially the nerfed wealth by level and magic item ban. Infinite loops are banned, everything else goes.

I rolled the following stats: 18 16 14 14 13 12, but I have no clue what to do with those! I have acces to every book published for 3.0 and 3.5, not including other campaign settings than DL.

What would you play under these contitions?

[MeklorIlavator]

2 things, first, search for the logical ninaja's guide to wizards(you'll probably get a link soon)

Then, use the following build- Wizard(specialize in abjuration)3/Master Specialist(Complete Mage)6/ initiate of the Seven Foldviel 7/ Master specialist 3

Use the Guide to pick lost schools(I suggest evocation and enchantment). Go to the Cheese section and memeorize. That should work wounders.

[Ranis]

Why don't you cut all of that bullcrap and DM yourself?

[Zincorium]

Ok, it has been almost two years since my old gaming group split up because we couldnt agree with my DMs houserulings, but the urge to play d&d has now returned, mainly because we are all OOTS fans. As our old DM is the only DM on the island where we live, we have decided to give him another chance. The game we will be playing is a dragonlance campaign during the Age of Mortals, and the following houserules is in place:

1) A 'full round' equals ten minutes if it is a spell casting time, but is a normal full round in all other reespects.

That only affects certain spells, most are standard actions. And that's a 10,000 % increase in casting time, is there any rationale given for why it's that way?

2) Characters are not capable of wearing armor for any longer than theit con mod x their level - the armors ACP, without having to save against fort or drop unconcious from ACP. Your carrying capacity is not taken into account. You may carry your armor in your backpack though, and don it in case of an emergency.

Are we talking rounds, minutes, or hours here? And in any case, there are a lot of conditions (exhausted, fatigued, etc.) that should happen before flat falling unconscious. Anything else is so unrealistic as to be silly, you don't go from being fine to knocked out because you're wearing armor. You get tired.

And when you consider how long it takes to put armor on when ambushed or the like, any character that relies on it will probably die because their dex is probably not that high.

3) Magical equipment hardly exists, and to know that it does (a prerequest for wanting to get some) requires a Knowledge (Arcana) roll vs. DC 30. Potions and wands are known to all casters though.

Magical equipment not existing completely destroys D&D, I hope your DM knows exactly what they're doing. What this leaves is the casters are still massively overpowered, while the standard fighter is some goblin's lunchmeat.

4) Homebrew wealth by level table: A character can expect to accumulate treassure equal to his level x his starting gold in value.

Again, I hope your DM knows what they're doing. Of course, magic items being rare will make this almost completely irrelevant.

5) Fewer but harder encounters; characters can expect ~0.5 encounters per day, but the encounters we DO find are between +2 and +4 of the partys average level.

And the last hope for a fighter's survival just went down the drain.

Seriously, DO NOT play a fighter. Play a druid or sorcerer, either of whom lose almost nothing in this transition.

My personal preferences:

a) I must be a Silvanesti or Qualinesti elf. I love playing those.

b) I must be able to cast at least a small number of spells.. magic is fun.

c) I must multiclass. I am like Nale in many respects... needless complications is great fun, and I love playing a swiss army PC, with as many special abilities as possible.

d) I must be shamelessly overpowered to compensate for some of the houseruled nerfs. especially the nerfed wealth by level and magic item ban. Infinite loops are banned, everything else goes.

I rolled the following stats: 18 16 14 14 13 12, but I have no clue what to do with those! I have acces to every book published for 3.0 and 3.5, not including other campaign settings than DL.

What would you play under these contitions?

Sorcerer or Druid, like I said. If you want to multiclass, go right ahead, but keep it reasonable. Druid with a few monk levels then into a PrC is probably your best bet.

If you really want overpowered, there's the bard 5/ur priest 1/rogue 2/bard 2/sublime chord 1/fochlucan lyricist 9. No infinite loops, but you're a decent skill monkey for the first part of your career, and then able to cast 9th level spells at the end. If you're not planning on being in the campaign that long, you won't get enough out of it to justify the weirdness, but if the game's going into epic you will rock the house.

[Yvian]

1) A 'full round' equals ten minutes if it is a spell casting time, but is a normal full round in all other reespects.

2) Characters are not capable of wearing armor for any longer than theit con mod x their level - the armors ACP, without having to save against fort or drop unconcious from ACP. Your carrying capacity is not taken into account. You may carry your armor in your backpack though, and don it in case of an emergency.

I rolled the following stats: 18 16 14 14 13 12, but I have no clue what to do with those! I have acces to every book published for 3.0 and 3.5, not including other campaign settings than DL.

What would you play under these contitions?

Some of the rules are odd - very odd.

1. How does summon monster work in your world - or for that matter any spell that takes a full round?

2. What is the time limit? Why would anybody wear armour in this world?

I personaly like low magic worlds and low GP worlds, but this is taking it a bit to extermes.

So, this is how I see your world working. No magic means few magic types. Do Wizards types have access to decent libaries or not? If not....

Fighters will spend 1/2 the combat putting on armour and then taking it off.

Be a Sorcerer. You will be one of the few people running around with magic. Want to help out your team mates - take craft magic weapon or something like that.

Be a Monk. Sneak and hide to find the figter. If he is not wearing his armour, beat him up. If he is, dance around a bit, and let him drop from exaushtion.

Also, take Vow Of Poverty. If you are going to be running around in a low magic world you might as well embrace it with open arms.

[Dark]

Are we talking rounds, minutes, or hours here? And in any case, there are a lot of conditions (exhausted, fatigued, etc.) that should happen before flat falling unconscious. Anything else is so unrealistic as to be silly, you don't go from being fine to knocked out because you're wearing armor. You get tired.

It's not as unrealistic as getting less tired from carrying armor in your backpack than from wearing it :)


The restriction on even knowing about magical items is weird. Just because they're rare? Here in the real world lots of people believed in magic items even though they don't exist at all. Maybe your DM is implementing some subtle distinction between "knowing" something and merely believing something that is true...

With houserules like these, I'd have an evil need to create a character who really doesn't believe in magic items. So when he finds the villains Magic Orb of Opening the Next Quest Area, he just leaves it behind because it's some stupid crystal ball. Then see what the DM does :)

[Solo]

Sorcerers and Warlocks do well in low magic campaigns, IIRC.

[Yvian]

Kensi is another choice if you want to go fighter - which you don't. Magical weapon without the questing.

[Dausuul]

Ok, it has been almost two years since my old gaming group split up because we couldnt agree with my DMs houserulings...

Looking at the rulings, I can see why. The guy is nuts. Why not run your own game? It's not like you need a special password from the Secret Order of Dungeon Masters.

a) I must be a Silvanesti or Qualinesti elf. I love playing those.

b) I must be able to cast at least a small number of spells.. magic is fun.

c) I must multiclass. I am like Nale in many respects... needless complications is great fun, and I love playing a swiss army PC, with as many special abilities as possible.

d) I must be shamelessly overpowered to compensate for some of the houseruled nerfs. especially the nerfed wealth by level and magic item ban. Infinite loops are banned, everything else goes.

You don't have to multiclass to be needlessly complicated and have a zillion special abilities. Just play a druid.

"I'm a healer!"
"No, wait, I'm an offensive caster!"
"No, wait, I'm a melee brute!"
"Did I mention I have a big tough pet, too?"

Of course, if you can find a way to get a 1-level dip in monk without taking experience penalties, that'll give you a nice fat boost to your AC. That's handy in a world where wild armor doesn't, to all intents and purposes, exist. Maybe you could be a Qualinesti/Silvanesti half-elf instead of full elf?

I rolled the following stats: 18 16 14 14 13 12, but I have no clue what to do with those! I have acces to every book published for 3.0 and 3.5, not including other campaign settings than DL.

Str 12 (Strength doesn't matter to people who can turn into bears)
Dex 13 (likewise Dex)
Con 16 (you keep your own hit points when you wild shape, so Con is good)
Int 14 (skill points are always good)
Wis 18 (the only stat a druid really needs)
Cha 14 (hey, you might have to make a Disguise check sometime)

[Ellisar]

Heh... sorry about the typos. I forgot a word in the title, and I forgot to mention the timeframe in which you can carry armor is in minutes.

This guy used to be into LARPing, and he claimes that people wearing replica metal armor would faint all the time, because armor is hot, heavy and uncomfortable. There is nothing short of buying/renting a suit of armor myself and wear it throughout an entire session that can make him change his mind.

The reason for the casting time increase I dont even understand myself. At first he houseruled it to be one round of casting for every creature in the fight, but he later simplified it. Oh, and he also likes the dramatic effect of having a BBEG casting a insanely powerful spell right in front of us, with the party trying to break through his guards and interrupt it.. So from a flavor standpoint it is ok.

Druids, while powerful, falls victim to another minor houserule; they can only use their powers in 'natural enviroments'. Should the party ever enter a city area, dungeon or building, the druid is basically reduced to a smelly aristocrat.

I have never thought of DMing myself, but I dont think that I would want to. The other players on the island are... less than patient, and they will wander off to watch funny videos on youtube in a second if I cant keep the pace they are used to.

[Ceres]

Your DM is obviously mad, but if noone else wants to DM I think reasoning with him is the only way to go. If this means that you will have to go two years without playing again... seriously, are you sure you can't DM yourself?

Anyway, the armour-rule is obviously your DM bragging about how he knows more about armour than you do. If he wants realism then D&D isn't the right system at all. There are way more unrealistic things than armour-rules: Hit-points? Killing goblins to become a better armoursmith? Not dying from falling down a 100 ft pit?

I'd suggest buying your DM a new system that is made to be realistic, like GURPS. Or just kick him in the groin. Whatever you prefer.

[Behold_the_Void]

The existence of Magical Items in the Dragonlance setting is common knowledge, especially to heroic types like the PCs. Although the amount of magic items are much diminished after the reign of the Dragon Overlords and the absence of magic for so long, they still exist and after the events at the end of the War of Souls arc, magic once again flourishes on Krynn. The Mage order in particular is at least undergoing reconstruction, if not already up and running once again, so magic in general should be fairly well-established. The low-magic ruling really makes no sense.

Also, heavy armor is nothing to a trained adventurer. Knights could do incredible acrobatic feats in armor, not to mention wear it AND take part in combat for extended periods of time. LARPing doesn't give you an idea of how armor works, LARPers haven't been acclimated to wearing it for most of their life.

[Dausuul]

Heh... sorry about the typos. I forgot a word in the title, and I forgot to mention the timeframe in which you can carry armor is in minutes.

This guy used to be into LARPing, and he claimes that people wearing replica metal armor would faint all the time, because armor is hot, heavy and uncomfortable. There is nothing short of buying/renting a suit of armor myself and wear it throughout an entire session that can make him change his mind.

Sure, people who lead the sedentary lives of modern Americans and just put on armor for a LARP battle or two on the weekends might faint, particularly if they don't stay hydrated. We're not talking about modern Americans. We're talking about medieval warriors who have been training full-time for years to move and fight in this stuff.

Anyway, armor is heavy and hot and uncomfortable, sure, but it's not nearly as bad as your DM makes it out to be. Last Halloween, I wore armor to the office and kept it on all day. Breastplate, mail hauberk, greaves, pauldrons, and all of that was steel, not aluminum. It got pretty uncomfortable (largely because much of my armor is secondhand and doesn't fit very well), and I was sure glad to get home and take it off, but I never even came close to fainting.

I could see applying fatigue penalties if you're doing strenuous labor in armor, or if you're wearing it for hours out in the hot sun, or if a fight drags on for more than 5 or 10 minutes--but that's 50 to 100 rounds, which ain't too likely in D&D.

The reason for the casting time increase I dont even understand myself. At first he houseruled it to be one round of casting for every creature in the fight, but he later simplified it. Oh, and he also likes the dramatic effect of having a BBEG casting a insanely powerful spell right in front of us, with the party trying to break through his guards and interrupt it.. So from a flavor standpoint it is ok.

Soooo... he's applying a limit to PC casting that he designed for his BBEGs? Sheesh.

Druids, while powerful, falls victim to another minor houserule; they can only use their powers in 'natural enviroments'. Should the party ever enter a city area, dungeon or building, the druid is basically reduced to a smelly aristocrat.

Eurgh. Well, then, cleric might be a good bet. Greater magic weapon and magic vestment can substitute for magic armor and weapons.

Or go with wizard. Start as an abjurer, up to level 3. For levels 4-7, go into Master Specialist from Complete Mage. 8-9, Fatespinner from Complete Arcane. 10-16, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, also from Complete Arcane. Round it out with two more levels of Fatespinner and two more Master Specialist, in that order.

What level are you starting at?

I have never thought of DMing myself, but I dont think that I would want to. The other players on the island are... less than patient, and they will wander off to watch funny videos on youtube in a second if I cant keep the pace they are used to.

If it becomes a problem, turn off the TV and ban all computers... but you might want to at least give it a shot first. The players might surprise you. If I were playing with a DM as lame as yours appears to be, my attention would start wandering too.

[RandomNPC]

I'd suggest buying your DM a new system that is made to be realistic, like GURPS. Or just kick him in the groin. Whatever you prefer.

I'd go for the good swift kick to the family jewels, go ahead and make a sunder attempt.

as for your gamers, if the only thing keeping you from being a DM is attention deficit disorder then HEY LOOK A PENNY!. i mean, you need to sit them down, tell them it's your first time DMing, tell them you need to have a few moments to get the universe together from time to time. Then, throw something shiny. i mean the shine of a disco ball, reduced to the size of a penny type shine. anyone who gets distracted by the glory of the shiney should not be in any D&D game.

if just plain old not wanting to DM for no reason in paticular (or a paticular reason not mentioned in the paragraph above) is the case, then by all means find a new DM. and "by all means" i mean fly me in, i'll do it. i just need to be back to work mon-fri and sometimes saturday....

[Driderman]

Sounds like maybe the players short attention span might be because of your loony DM...

[Yvian]

I know where your DM is coming from. Armor is heavy and complex.

I mean, to be a knight of Charlemagne you had to be able to vault onto your horse in plate….

I mean, the battlefields of Europe were littered with kings and such, fainting after 10 minutes in full plate……

Nah - I am sorry, but no.

I can understand where you DM is coming from, and I dislike the idea of my players sleeping overnight in the full plate of comfort [or whatever that special ability is], but we are talking about well trained warriors who are used to this sort of stuff.

[Driderman]

I know where your DM is coming from. Armor is heavy and complex.

I mean, to be a knight of Charlemagne you had to be able to vault onto your horse in plate….

I mean, the battlefields of Europe were littered with kings and such, fainting after 10 minutes in full plate……

Nah - I am sorry, but no.

I can understand where you DM is coming from, and I dislike the idea of my players sleeping overnight in the full plate of comfort [or whatever that special ability is], but we are talking about well trained warriors who are used to this sort of stuff.

Well, he's not talking about sleeping in armor, he's talking about a level 10 constitution 18 fighter in full plate fainting after wearing his armor for 3 hours...

[Logic]

This guy used to be into LARPing, and he claimes that people wearing replica metal armor would faint all the time, because armor is hot, heavy and uncomfortable. There is nothing short of buying/renting a suit of armor myself and wear it throughout an entire session that can make him change his mind.

Also, heavy armor is nothing to a trained adventurer. Knights could do incredible acrobatic feats in armor, not to mention wear it AND take part in combat for extended periods of time. LARPing doesn't give you an idea of how armor works, LARPers haven't been acclimated to wearing it for most of their life.

Sure, people who lead the sedentary lives of modern Americans and just put on armor for a LARP battle or two on the weekends might faint, particularly if they don't stay hydrated. We're not talking about modern Americans. We're talking about medieval warriors who have been training full-time for years to move and fight in this stuff.

Anyway, armor is heavy and hot and uncomfortable, sure, but it's not nearly as bad as your DM makes it out to be. Last Halloween, I wore armor to the office and kept it on all day. Breastplate, mail hauberk, greaves, pauldrons, and all of that was steel, not aluminum. It got pretty uncomfortable (largely because much of my armor is secondhand and doesn't fit very well), and I was sure glad to get home and take it off, but I never even came close to fainting.

I could see applying fatigue penalties if you're doing strenuous labor in armor, or if you're wearing it for hours out in the hot sun, or if a fight drags on for more than 5 or 10 minutes--but that's 50 to 100 rounds, which ain't too likely in D&D.

This may just be an assumption based on a stereotype, but that is because LARPers are hardly the fittest people. Wearing armor took training to overcome its weight, and anybody that just throws it on is going to be fatigued. These LARPers are very unlikely to have the training to wear and move about it in it properly.

This is basically covered in the descriptions for the Armor Proficency feats. Tell him some guy on the internet said that his house rule on armor is just plain retarded.

[Jonesh]

Ceres and Behold_the_Void (and other ofcourse) state good points.

I mean, come on, replica armour? I'm not into that or LARPing, but from what I've seen at least half of all kinds of replicas are rubbish.
Yes, I know. I might very well be wrong, it's just my own biased opinion

But I do know that being in shape and such has a big impact on your performance in such stress, it's almost like weighted clothing;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_clothing


I've had my share of discussions about the validity of the opinion about knights being completely helpless while laying on their backs
Hell, I was completely surprised one time long ago when my best friend thought heavily armoured cavalrymen, e.g. knights, couldn't mount their horses without winches (which is in some old fictional book by Mark Twain or someone IIRC) and therefore were quite helpless on foot.
After I discussed it with him and pointed him to some sources to actually research it, that opinion of his didn't last untill the next night.
Like, I won the argument or something

Oh, advice? Try reasoning a bit I guess, be a DM yourself, move from that island, try that popular play over the internet-thingy or whatever it is, stuff like that.
And geesh, you're complaining that you're players might "...they will wander off to watch funny videos on youtube in a second if I cant keep the pace they are used to."
That's just disrespectful to any gaming-group.
Like, you could start with gaming somewhere with no internet-access and such.
And then~ develop some guidelines, tablerules, whatever.
Besides, isn't it good for you and your fellow players if you can help combat their lacking attentionspan?

[Arbitrarity]

On top of that, the amount of time you can wear padded armour is only 8 minutes less than full plate.

Smite him.

Or, play cheese beyond recall. I direct you attention to Optimization for the pro's.

Also known as the board of extreme brokenness. Pick anything that works off there. You can't use pun-pun or omniscifier, but you could try nanobots, or.. damn, not too much.

Actually, use pun-pun. It's not technically infinate, just nigh-inifinate . Hulking hurler, twice betrayer of Shar,

Maybe try a psion?

EDIT: Phear my 20'th level paladin! His immense wealth is equal to 3000 gp! After defeating a Ancient wyrm at level 18, with no magical backup, his wealth has become immense!

The fact that I can make more than this with a lvl 5 bard in under a year is irrelevant@

[Lolth]

I don't want to cast aspersions on any game/at any DM i've never seen myself, but I might have a hard time playing with someone that autocratic.

Since I don't even know what island you're on, much less suspect it's where I live, I can only do the next best thing:

Feel free to come check out our online chat (link in my .sig), we're always looking for new players and DMs, and we're a friendly lot by and large.

[TheOOB]

Perhaps you should let your DM know that D&D is about high fantasy adventure and combat. Knights in shining armor with magical swords, powerful wizards with earth-shattering enchantments, epic battles between good and evil, thats what its all about.

[Mooncalf]

Why bother? Is he trying to be realistic? Because some of us reinactors who wear REAL armor (and are fat, out of shape bastards) can attest to the inaccuracy of the INSANELY stupid armor rule.

I would find a way to work around having to play with this person.

[TheOOB]

The armor rule is silly, armor is designed to protect its wearing in combat, and you cant protect yourself well if your faint.

[Solo]

If you want to be cheezy, you could always try out the build in my sig.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Ellisar - I have to thank you. I haven't had as good a laugh reading about your wacky DM in ages; and I laugh a lot! Seriously though, you can't be thinking of playing under those rules?!

I too feel your pain though. I live out in the boonies of Australia where gaming opportunities are severely limited. So to get your gaming addiction hit you could do what I do and play online. I can personally recommend Dndonlinegames.com , myth-weavers.com , or even the gaming forum on these boards (look at the play by post section of the forum.

Online gaming is slower but is a lot better than going with your guy.

Or you could do what others have suggested. Have a go at DMing yourself. You might find that you don't have to do it for too long. If your regular DM shows up he might find out what it's like to be a player and what a fun game should be like and take over again. The others in your group might come around as well. Or share around the DM responsibilities - I can't imagine the rest of your group wants to play under the ridiculous conditions your 'regular' (Damn - I nearly said normal before I realized it) DM.

[Ellisar]

Thanks for the replys guys :)

I have actually tried to DM in the past, using the GURPS 3rd edition and the Star Wars d6 systems, but witout luck. In buth games people got bored with their characters because they couldnt develop them without gaining levels, and in GURPS they couldnt cope with the severely increased lethality of combat, as we played with the optional bleeding and permanent injury rules, in an attempt to satisfy their lust for realism.

Also, my DM has his redeeming qualities. We play somewhat roleplay heavy campaigns (80% RP, 20% Hack´n´slash), and he is very good at creating interesting RP scenarios. I just want to avoid the pitfalls of his realism regime, and just make a character that can pwn bad guys like there is no tomorrow when the fights show up, so he can stay alive for the long RP scenarios. Divine characters is sort of problematic, bacause as it is the case with druids, a divine caster has to persue his gods ideals to gain spells. A cleric of the god of trade must be on a trading mission to be able to cast spells, and likewise a cleric of the god of revenge must be trying to get back at someone to get his. It adds flavor, though it makes it harder to play a healer. I could look into the Mystic class from the Dragonlance campaign setting though, as they have no connections to any dieties with wierd agendas.

Thanks for the links guys (and girls), I will have a good look at those :)

[Closet_Skeleton]

A cleric of the god of trade must be on a trading mission to be able to cast spells, and likewise a cleric of the god of revenge must be trying to get back at someone to get his. It adds flavor, though it makes it harder to play a healer.

Just play a cleric of the god of healing, then whenever people need healing you're doing your god's work.

[Hiruma]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Tell your DM he's bat-**** insane.