The weak VS the strong

[PMDM]

I've been trying to come up with a campaign that breaks out of the box for D&D. One of the ideas is to have a commoner revolution. Sure, as the DM I can dictate that the commoners defaultly win, but I'm also running a high magic campaign. The king can keep his people in check with magic. I'm also breaking one of the most basic laws of D&D: "A higher level character will generally have the advantage". So, I can run a combat where a lot of commoners swarm a 20th lvl wizard-king, as eventually defeat him with their numbers, but I would like a better solution than numbers.

So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

It can be any combination of core classes for the core classes.

I fully expect there to be no real solution to this problem, but I would like to see what everyone comes up with anyway.

[Solo]

Buy Candles of Invocation....

[Emperor Tippy]

The 4 20th level characters win.

A single wizard can do it.

[Dragonmuncher]

Hm... steal their stuff. Not with pickpocketing, but maybe they go to an inn, and stable their horses. Some commoners steal the horses in the night, with whatever stuff's on them.

[PinkysBrain]

They can't use subterfuge to maneuver them into position for a trap (the adventurers would see right through them). So that leaves them with waiting for a situation they could use to their advantage. The best one would be the adventurer's attendance at a mass gathering.

A large group of commoners with slings could take some 20th level characters down, but any of them with DR or contingencies would be pretty much untouchable. They'd pretty much have to pool their resources and hire seers to find soft spots and buy cheap low DC ranged attack items with which to force automatic failures. Also they would need to hope the contingency the wizard has active isn't going to bite them in the ass, nor that he has a clone ready.

[Toliudar]

Since I'm assuming that the PC's are not among the aforementioned commoners, this is effectively happening off-camera. If you establish it as a plot point, or a point in history, not only will they probably not question it, they probably won't CARE.

However, purely as a thought exercise:

The wizard-king dies of old age. Is found by a servant, who spreads the word. Commoners rush in and claim victory.
The wizard-king, in pursuit of the power required to maintain his iron grip on a kingdom, makes some kind of deal with a powerful entity who eventually claims him, body and soul. Commoners rush in and claim victory.
Wizard-king selects a commoner as a sexual conquest. Falls asleep. Is coup-de-grace'd. Commoners rush in and claim victory.

If you want to have the PC's actually involved in the fight to remove the much-more-powerful opponents, you're probably reduced to leaving an obvious Achilles heel (either individually or as a group), giving the PC's a chance to gain enough levels to challenge the uber-baddies, or make the uber-baddies be exceptionally stupid. As has been shown time and time again, the "Incredibly stupid" template can be applied to most opponents to bring the CR down by as much as 10.

[Machete]

Give them an impossible quest that they'll surely get killed on.

[The Gilded Duke]

One thing that would help the game run smoothly and help give the commoners an advantage would be if you were to use the mob template from the DMG 2.

Basically it conversts a group of low level creatures into one gargantuan (i think) creature with more hit dice who acts similarly to a swarm.

Have the commoners kill any commoner who sympathises with a PC. Fighters and things without natural fight and teleportation could likley be killed by massive amounts of mobs.

Wizards, like the wizard lord you mentioned are considerably harder.

Pigeons are how I would do it.

Some of the commoners, and experts who are likley also involved in this rebellion are likley to have some ranks in handle animal. They capture pigeons hawks and other birds or raise them from a young age.

The birds are then trained to identify either known mages, or typical signs of adventurers. They are trained to attack then flee whenever they find an adventure sleeping.

Birds are everywhere, few parties will attack all birds on sight. If they do, use other animals as well.

Whenever a party member is asleep, a bird or other small animal will attempt a coup'de'grace on them. A raven does 2 damage on a critical hit. With a coup'de'grace the victim has to make a dc 12 fortitude save or die. The majority of the time the adventurer will make the save. One out of twenty times they will fail. Even if they make their save, the victim did not get a good night's rest. Thus no restored spells.

In addition, the gathering of the following items would be illegal and punishable by mob justice:
Bat Guano (Fireball)
Amber, Crystal, or Glass Rods (Lightning Bolt)
Diamonds and other Valuable Gems (Ressurection, Symbol of...)
Nightsticks, Candle of Invocation
Potions (Transformation, other spells)
Candles (Summon Monster Spells, Commoners will use torches instead)
Ivory, Marble, Silverware (Magnifigant Mansion)
Powdered Corn Extract (Rope Trick)
Holy Symbols
Silver Wire and Tiny Bells (Alarm)
Forked Metal Rods (Planeshift)

As the Magnifigant Mansion is the greatest hinderance in the campaign against the pc's all rhinos elephants and other ivory containing animals will be killed and the Ivory destroyed. Only through removing Ivory do we remove unbreakable sanctuary.

And so on.

Esentially the goal of the commoners should be to hinder the PC's at any moment. The biggest thing the PC's have going for them is spells, so anybody who gathers spell components should be immediatley shot with heavy crossbow bolts. Without others to gather and produce spell components and Foci the PC's will have to find and produce the components themselves. How many Pc's have Craft Silversmithing to make the tiny silver spoon required for the magnifigant mansion?

The material plane should become inhospitable to the adventures, hopefully they will be driven off planet to die in the nine hells.

[brian c]

The 4 20th level characters win.

A single wizard can do it.

As much as I despise the overpoweredness of wizards, this is pretty much true. Unless the Wizard is very lazy and/or inattentive (which he shouldn't be, since he's probably Lawful and has very high Int and good Wis), there's no way he gets overtaken by commoners, unless maybe if there are millions and millions of them.

[geek_2049]

Pull a 7 Samurai type deal where they hire adventurers to teach them (ie give them classes), equip them (sort of), and have the two together fight as their champions.

[Bassetking]

And the Meek Shall Inherit(Then, re-invest)

The most commonly cited strategy as to the only thing that can beat another 20th level caster.

Another 20th level caster.

Or Two.

If the Mob of Commoners max their provided ranks in Profession(X), Earn as much as they can, and live in abject poverty, they can afford to hire the services of 20th level casters, at some point.

[Emperor Tippy]

As much as I despise the overpoweredness of wizards, this is pretty much true. Unless the Wizard is very lazy and/or inattentive (which he shouldn't be, since he's probably Lawful and has very high Int and good Wis), there's no way he gets overtaken by commoners, unless maybe if there are millions and millions of them.

Even millions and millions don't stand a chance.

Shapechange. It gets the wizard a full heal every round, a breath weapon that will kill every commoner it hits (refreshed every round), he can fly, he gets SR, and DR that the commoners can't beat.

About a round before it wares off cast MMM and go and hang out until you get spells back. Repeat until no commoners are left.

Or use greater draconic ally from Spell Compendium and just higher a dozen dragons to work for you.

And those are without cheese.

[Jasdoif]

From the "simply fun" wizardry angle, a widened cloudkill cast by a level 20 wizard has the potential to leave a trail of corpses 40 feet wide and just over 2,000 feet long. A widened sunburst deals 6d6 to everyone in a 160-foot radius.

From the "simply fun" commoner angle, use extensive Aid Another for a Diplomacy check to convince a greater deity to move their godly realm to a spot where it covers the level-20s general area, then labor for a year and a day to apply a time trait where one year in the godly realm equates to one round in the rest of the Material Plane. With any luck the level-20s won't see any need to bother with the outside world, and in an hour and 15 minutes of their lives the commoners will outlive even a newborn elf with maximum lifespan under the accelerated time trait.

[Ninja Chocobo]

And those are without cheese.

Shapechange IS cheese, remember?
It's one of those things, where no matter what you do with it (within reason), it's still cheesy.

[Tokiko Mima]

I would go the Heroes of Horror route. Give an occasional commoner the ability to inflict a special curse upon dying with no save, spell resistance or magic spell removal possible. Some sort of formal ritual is required to lay the curse to rest, the knowledge of which would be in the hands of the commoners.

Also involve Circle magic, and have the commoners have a few exceptional heroes supporting them to strike and fade at the PC's.

[Quietus]

Even millions and millions don't stand a chance.

Shapechange. It gets the wizard a full heal every round, a breath weapon that will kill every commoner it hits (refreshed every round), he can fly, he gets SR, and DR that the commoners can't beat.

About a round before it wares off cast MMM and go and hang out until you get spells back. Repeat until no commoners are left.

Or use greater draconic ally from Spell Compendium and just higher a dozen dragons to work for you.

And those are without cheese.

Full heal every round? Really? I could've sworn... *Looks this up* Ah yes, as Polymorph.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further)

I can see where you'd get a potential there for healing every round... though I think, given the statement that "changing back does not heal the subject further", a strong case can be made that further changes don't heal - and none of them are "full", anyway.

Is there errata that says otherwise I'm unaware of?

And yes, I'm aware that this doesn't change the fact that the wizard could win the fight... but even if he does, he just killed everyone in his own kingdom. It's lose-lose for the wizard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Full heal every round? Really? I could've sworn... *Looks this up* Ah yes, as Polymorph.



I can see where you'd get a potential there for healing every round... though I think, given the statement that "changing back does not heal the subject further", a strong case can be made that further changes don't heal - and none of them are "full", anyway.

Is there errata that says otherwise I'm unaware of?

No errata. You just don't change back to your original form. You change into a different type of dragon every round. For a reloaded breath weapon and full HP.

And yes, I'm aware that this doesn't change the fact that the wizard could win the fight... but even if he does, he just killed everyone in his own kingdom. It's lose-lose for the wizard.

Ah yes. But I was assuming an unwise wizard. A wise wizard would never have his kingdom reach a point like this. And even if he did he would use mind control to keep the rebellion down.

[SITB]

Unlesss he reanimates every single corpse in his kingdom as an undead under a strict hierarchy so that he will have loyal smart undead at the top that will control loyal, slightly less undead and so on 'till everyone is subject to the Wizard's control.

On a different note, why should a Wizard want to control a kingdom anyway?

[greenknight]

Face it, once you get to high levels, spellcasters are pretty tough to kill off, especially if you're only a commoner. The best ways I can think of to achieve this is through assassination. Put high powered poison in the Wizard's food, cut the Wizard's throat while he's asleep, have someone with an antimagic field grapple him and kill him with light weapons. Of course, even if you manage to kill him, what do you do about the Clone he's had prepared for just that situation? Not to mention that a Wizard could have some means of preventing each of the above methods from succeeding.

[Arbitrarity]

Which, if tippy's playing him, he did already.


Commonders can't acess where he sleeps, he eats only food checked for poison from his MMM, he has craft contingent spell to avoid AMF's, rides around on a phantom steed (up high) all day, etc.

[Inyssius Tor]

So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

"Pazuzu! Pazuzu! Pazuzu!"

[Baskineli]

When a small kid gets his ass kicked by a bigger kid, one of the easiest things he can do is to convince the biggest kid to help him :)

The commoners could always hire other high-level NPCs, they could prey to their god to help them, or even go to a quest to bring 50 dragons to kick the PC's ass.

After all, this is how all adventurers start, no?

[Foolosophy]

"Pazuzu! Pazuzu! Pazuzu!"

:D this one put a smile on my face

[Sir Giacomo]

The commoners could always hire other high-level NPCs, they could prey to their god to help them, or even go to a quest to bring 50 dragons to kick the PC's ass.

This is likely the best avenue they could take. Plot-wise (7 samurai, anyone?) it would make great sense, only with the pc commoners of 1st level then having to locate the adequate npc heroes (a high WIS commoner with maximum possible sense motive and skill focus-sense motive, plus aid another, could be quite OK).

Another thing is for several farm communities/thousands of commoners led by a charismatic commoner (again, max the respective stats, skills and abilities) will address independent churches to help to get candles of invocation and simply gate in 34 HD creatures that do the job for them vs the lvl 20 party (remember, they are npcs, so also have much less wealth!). Of course, without the infinite Titan loop. In contrast to high level npcs, they may not have that much to lose from gaining the enmity of the being they call...(remember, it is likely called unwilling, and after that risks its life with such a combat task, where it can really perish as opposed to a summoning effect )
The commoners could even - if very desperate - draw lots and pay appease evil churches with human sacrifice/souls to give to demon lords for the candles to use.

- Giacomo

[Dausuul]

I've been trying to come up with a campaign that breaks out of the box for D&D. One of the ideas is to have a commoner revolution. Sure, as the DM I can dictate that the commoners defaultly win, but I'm also running a high magic campaign. The king can keep his people in check with magic. I'm also breaking one of the most basic laws of D&D: "A higher level character will generally have the advantage". So, I can run a combat where a lot of commoners swarm a 20th lvl wizard-king, as eventually defeat him with their numbers, but I would like a better solution than numbers.

So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

It can be any combination of core classes for the core classes.

I fully expect there to be no real solution to this problem, but I would like to see what everyone comes up with anyway.

Eh, not that hard. You didn't put any level restrictions on the commoners, so just make one of them 150th level. And make sure the adventurers are all melee fighters.

Seriously, though, I don't see any way of doing it without either some sort of built-in weak spot for the adventurers, or the use of extreme cheese tactics by the commoners (and the adventurers not being allowed to use the same cheese). The candle of invocation is probably the best example of such tactics.

[PinkysBrain]

he has craft contingent spell to avoid AMF's

Contingent spells don't look into the future, having a contingent spell activate with a trigger "when the wearer is affected by an AMF" is useless (they don't have any wording which says they activate before the effect happens). They also can't detect anything not happening to the caster. You could trigger an AMF which activates when you detect an AMF near you (that's something happening to you before the AMF can disable the contingent spell) but that wouldn't help much when you are sleeping.

Not to say there aren't effective strategies against AMF, shrink item is a perfectly good core only one, contingency and contingent spells just are not.

[Dan_Hemmens]

There's always the FTL quaterstaff railgun...

[Saph]

It's not actually as hard as you might think. The commoners just have to wait for the adventurers to make a mistake.

There's no "guaranteed kill" tactic to beat high-level characters, but you don't really need one - you just need to find a weak spot. Everyone leaves an opening sooner or later.

In the abstract it's impossible, because for any tactic X that the commoners come up with, the adventurers can use their infinite resources to deal with it. But if the adventurers don't know about the tactic until after they get hit by it . . .

- Saph

[Green Bean]

It's not actually as hard as you might think. The commoners just have to wait for the adventurers to make a mistake.

There's no "guaranteed kill" tactic to beat high-level characters, but you don't really need one - you just need to find a weak spot. Everyone leaves an opening sooner or later.

In the abstract it's impossible, because for any tactic X that the commoners come up with, the adventurers can use their infinite resources to deal with it. But if the adventurers don't know about the tactic until after they get hit by it . . .

- Saph

The problem isn't finding an opening; if you have enough time, one can be found. The problem is that even a large number of commoners will lack the ability to exploit it. Going toe to toe is just suicidal. Trickery is out; a rogue with ranks in Sense Motive, a cleric, a monk, or a druid will be able to see through any lie the commoners tell. Same goes for trying to surprise them.

The fact is, a group of level twenty adventurers is four people who can be expected to reliably kill four demonic generals every day. Look at the Sapphire Guard going up against Xykon for an example of pretty much what happens when a larger number of low levels go up against a high level character.

[skyclad]

THe commoners can just challenge them to a game of poker with the deck of many cards ;D