In Defense of the Wu Jen

[GryffonDurime]

I really love the Wu Jen, I do. It was the second class I ever played in DnD through a bizzare bit of happenstance, and I knew from the first second that it was love, true love. The kind of love that makes you want to destroy an entire world.

And so I shall. I present the Swarming Wu Jen World Alteration Squad:

I was creating a character to play in a munchkiny game, and without realizing I stumbled across a combination that I found particularly effective. The original itteration attempted to use a lot of blatantly overpowered bits: the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, the Incantatrix...but as I looked over it, the dawning simplicity of what was really needed to destroy an entire planet with a single Wu Jen became clear: I need thirteen levels; 12 of Wu Jen and one of Archmage. Anything more is gravy--but, as I will later demonstrate, tasty gravy.

The barebones combination is to take Body Outside Body (one of the Wu Jen's few signature spell, and the cause, I'm sure, of many a GM's headaches) in combination with the Archmage's Spell-Like Ability. The original caster--for future reference known as the Original--casts Body Outside Body twice as a spell-like ability, producing G1, the first generation of clones. G1 is populated by four Wu Jen clones, each complete with their own set of Spell-Like Abilities for the day.

The Original issues the follow instructions: Be fruitful, and multiply; use your ability to copy yourself four times each, then instruct your copies to do the same. Every six seconds (talking is a free action), we increase the population.

• Round 1: G2-A comes into being, adding eight more Wu Jen to the fold
• Round 2: G2-B comes into being, adding eight more again; G2-A creates G3-A for sixteen more Wu Jen
• Round 3: G2-B creates sixteen Wu Jen of their own; G3-A creates thirty two.
• Round 4: G3-B creates thirty two more, G4-A makes sixty four.

In twenty four seconds, you have 180 Wu Jen, and this number will only continue to grow; after a minute has elapsed you'll start to get a slight domino effect as the eldest generation disappears, even still you're not subject to diminishing returns because you're running a surplus of clones; the numbers of each generation will continue to increase ad nauseum.

Using the Power

Now this is all well and good, but how do you use this tremendous power? Several major options exist at each level of power for this build, as follows:

• Level 13: Overpopulate your planet in a matter of hours. Order all clones to grapple each other, trying to fit an increasingly infinite amount of mass into a finite space; a black hole should occur...eventually.
• Level 14: Take another level of Archmage. Good options include taking Giant Size as a Spell-Like Ability (nothing says fun like NI Colossol Wu Jen...) and Arcane Fire (just because they can't cast spells doesn't mean they can't put their spellslots to good pre-epic use)
• Level 17: Ladies and gentlemen, let the true cheese begin. Using your newest Archmage level, take Wish as a Spell-Like Ability; in theory, each clone should have its own discrete experience pool to draw from. Even the most powerful of magical items are now within your grasp, and nearly any spell can be cast by each clone. Please
• Level 20 or artificially raised Caster Level: The speed at which your generations grow is now truly staggering; even if you only duplicated a single set (1 cast of the SLA, rather than 2) to simplify the computations, in Generation 10-A, you'll have an impressive 3,145,728 Wu Jen at your beck and call. In the span of two short minutes, Generation 20-A will number just shy of four trillion. I do hope that by this point you've migrated to the Abyss of a similar, infinitely habitable plain. It's yours now.
• Further Levels: Other fine abilities to transform into Spell-Like abominations include Shapechange, Etherealness, Gate, Time Stop...really, you've got access to 9th level spells. I'm not sure there ARE bad choices. With that said, I HIGHLY recommend Transcend Mortality: instruct your clones to cast it during their first round of life, then tell them to start copying themselves. You slow down your generational progression slightly, but nothing short of the truly epic is going to slay your slobbering mass of Wu Jen now.

Amazing Feats
I won't dally here long, the subject is largely one of taste and necessity: take any feats relevant to taking the Archmage and any other prestige class you may decide upon. It may also be wise to utilize some of the unique feats afforded by the Wu Jen: taking a Spirit feat or two grants each clone the ability to reroll their initiative if they enter an encounter. Likewise, any feat that would normally be restricted by uses/day is encouraged, as this build can really abuse them to absurd degree.

Getting the Most Out of Your Class Levels
Sure, you can achieve the Swarming Wu Jen World Alteration Squad as a straight Wu Jen 12/Archmage 1.

But why would you want to? Good prestige classes include:

• The Fatespinner, Level 1-4: If you intend to copy any Spell-Like Ability that allows a save or forces a roll, this should be given HEAVY consideration. Arboreal Transformation combined with this should smooth the process of converting every living thing on the planet into a treant under your command.
• Mindbender, Level 1: Given that all your clones would share your 100 feet telepathy, this essentially gives you a Hivemind. I don't know why you wouldn't take this.
• Loremaster, Any Levels: Pricey, but in tandem with the Mindbender, you've just created the world's first supercomputer as each clone can makes its own discrete check to know any given piece of information...failure is irrelevant.
• Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil, Any Levels: There's something to be said for the ability to create the Prismatic Wall of China.
• Mage of the Arcane Order - Should be taken only if functioning under the assumption that a clone may repay the original's Spell Debt; this is, at best, dubious ground.
• Really, any PrC taken with full casting levels (or dipped for those that do progress casting) are a boon to this build, so long as they don't distract from the feat requirements of the Archmage, your true goal.

Final Cheese
There is one final, ultimate use for the Swarming Wu Jen World Alteration Squad: once you hit level 21, you win. At this caster level, each generation is producing greater numbers at a multiplier of 4 rather than 2. You can have as many clones as you like submit their useless 9th Level Spellslots to a ritual. There is very little functional limit to your power at this level.

Wrap Up
So, this came about as an accident. I advise you to never, ever use this combination. Things such as this are fun exercises in creativity, and I'd love to see someone point out crazy venues that could take this humble Wu Jen one-man-band in truly amazing directions. The only game that builds like this are good in are one-player games, played directly by you and I: the very intent of such power-gaming is to break the system, to win, and so long as you play alone you will never force others to lose in so doing.

Hope you enjoyed my first attempt at powergaming, and if this has been done before--I suspect it has, if only given the length of time this material has existed--I must apologize for wasting a small bit of your time, if only on some small project.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Nice. Excessively powerful, while remaining entertaining.

[Ninja Chocobo]

*clap* *clap* *clap*
Congratulations.

[GryffonDurime]

Aww, thanks.

The Wu Jen's spell list may not be as robust as the Wizard's, but you have to admit...those few good, exclusive spells it does have sure are doozies.

Giant Size, Body Outside Body, Arboreal Transformation, Transcend Mortality...basically, any high level Wu Jen-only spell worth having can really shine in this build, and one makes the whole thing possible.

Edit: Hah! I just realized that my avatar is actually depicting a Wu Jen character I once had.

[Quietus]

Edit: Hah! I just realized that my avatar is actually depicting a Wu Jen character I once had.

Nice! Now, if only you had a few more....

[GryffonDurime]

Nice! Now, if only you had a few more....

Avatars? Wu Jen?

[Solo]

>.>
<.<

He's just stumbled upon the PRC's latest secret weapon!

[Foolosophy]

nice :)

you really should start out as a gnome, though ;)

[Quietus]

Avatars? Wu Jen?

All of them. You just proved that you have the power; You can Xerox him, bigger, stronger, more numerous!

[Seatbelt]

If anything this proves why the Archmage is a powerful Prc, not that the Wu Jen is a powerful class. :P

[Hamster_Ninja]

It could really be done with any class that allows a choice of a spell as a spell like ability. Wu Jen can access a spell that is very broken and gets worse when it can be used more and more times per day.

[GryffonDurime]

If anything this proves why the Archmage is a powerful Prc, not that the Wu Jen is a powerful class. :P

The trick doesn't work without access to a Wu Jen exclusive spell, though.

I'm going to just chime in with an incidental bit on info here: at level 21, if Generation 10-A (1 minute's worth of duplication, incidentally) each submits one of their otherwise useless Epic Spell Slots, you can fully mitigate any Epic Spell up to a DC of 59,768,832...so...yeah.

Other incidental suggestions: seriously, consider the Loremaster. Several trillion copies of yourself connected in a hivemind all making knowledge checks (which take no action) and communicating them to you (a free, telepathic action) means nigh omniscience. To borrow a leaf from the Omnificer, if I may, you could make a Knowledge: Religion check to find out what it would take to please any given deity enough for him or her or it to invest you with divine rank.

Also look to the Wu Jen/Wizard spell Absorbation: assuming you've invested in your clones a SLA that can be absorbed, you can safely cast any spell you know any number of times per day.

As each clone also comes complete with its own non-magical equipment in imitation of your own, for all intents and purposes you can have a limitless supply of raw, nonmagical materials...which Wish can provide you with, anyway, in greater quantity and concentration.

Addendum: For your viewing pleasure:

Spoiler

Show

[thehothead]

Thirty different kinds of awesome.
There may not even BE that many kinds of awesome, But with that many clones, you could just invent them. The black hole grapple was awesome.

[GryffonDurime]

Thirty different kinds of awesome.
There may not even BE that many kinds of awesome, But with that many clones, you could just invent them. The black hole grapple was awesome.

The black hole grapple goes to Emperor Tippy; that was his bit of inspiration.
Probably the most disturbing bit of this is that short of divine intervention or an even of similar magnitude...you're probably not going to be able to slay them faster than they can multiply once you hit, at least, generation 6-A. You've created the cloning equivalent of perpetual motion.

[Laurellien]

This thread shouldn't be 'in defence of the Wu Jen', it should be how to create an unstoppable army of oriental ninja-wizards. Seriously though, well done, I never looked at the class that way before (cracks open OA and CA).

[Ramza00]

Can also be done via a Cleric or Ur Priest with Miracle and Hierophant. Use Miracle to dupe Body outside body. I saw when complete mage came out someone doing an Warlock/Mindbender/Ur Priest/Eldritch Theurge build under this principle with Divine Metamagic, he still had access to his eldritch blast and other invocations even though he can't use his spells due to those being spell like abilities.

And before you say you can't do this due to flavor part of Eldritch Theurge, it depends on your setting. You can be an Ur priest of a Dead God according to Ur Priest. Lost Empires of faerun stated out some of the dead gods of FR.

[GryffonDurime]

Divine cheese...

But the Wu Jen does have an advantage over the Cleric's army: his army can be armed with more 9th Level SLAs without interrupting casting, and you can most assuredly take Eldritch Theurge into this build to create a Wu Jen firing squad of death...a flying squad.

The Wu Jen are also nigh immortal thanks to Transcend Reality.

And even if the Wu Jen aren't using Warlock SLAs, there's still plenty of fullcasting PrCs open to this combination for great justice and utter fun: as previously shown, an army of Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil are likely the strongest defensive power on the planet.

Sure, the Clerics can try it. But the trick is Wu Jen in nature, and I'm here to argue that the Wu Jen can do it better

[Laurellien]

Ladies and Gentlemen, and some say that casters are not overpowered.

[Ramza00]

Divine cheese...

But the Wu Jen does have an advantage over the Cleric's army: his army can be armed with more 9th Level SLAs without interrupting casting, and you can most assuredly take Eldritch Theurge into this build to create a Wu Jen firing squad of death...a flying squad.

The Wu Jen are also nigh immortal thanks to Transcend Reality.

And even if the Wu Jen aren't using Warlock SLAs, there's still plenty of fullcasting PrCs open to this combination for great justice and utter fun: as previously shown, an army of Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil are likely the strongest defensive power on the planet.

Sure, the Clerics can try it. But the trick is Wu Jen in nature, and I'm here to argue that the Wu Jen can do it better

Of course you can use an infinite loop and get a virtual firing squad. You can also use a scroll of gate and gate in a titan who gates in a titan ad infitum.

Without infinite loops your trick has a problem of limited duration, divine persist eliminates this by making the duration 24 hours (or 48 with a rod of extend)

[Laurellien]

Infinite loops tend to cheapen things though, why not see if you can squeeze some incantatrix or sacred exorcist levels in their to get your important spells persistified (and possibly extended with a metamagic rod).

[GryffonDurime]

Of course you can use an infinite loop and get a virtual firing squad. You can also use a scroll of gate and gate in a titan who gates in a titan ad infitum.

I fail to see the relevance, especially since my loop actually approaches infinity as it continues, rather than just being a linear progress towards infinity.

Without infinite loops your trick has a problem of limited duration, divine persist eliminates this by making the duration 24 hours (or 48 with a rod of extend)

My trick has no problem of duration because it does have an infinite loop so...not to sound callous, but I fail to see how that's relevant.
And there are ways to persist your clones, if that's really your goal. For the price of 1 Caster Level, you can dip Cleric and do the trick yourself with a decent Charisma or an investment in Extra Turning. Those willing to invest heavily in Spellcraft feats or willing to take a small plunge into Incarnum can likewise pump Spellcraft high enough to utterly decimate competition with the Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect.

[Ramza00]

Most DMs say flat out no infinite loops.

Second you can't dip into cleric to power arcane spells according to the errata.

[GryffonDurime]

Most DMs say flat out no infinite loops.

Which is again why this was established as a single-player exercise. And beyond that, you miss the point: if you want to use this in game, you can simply tone it down: have only one of your clones in each generation clone themselves at the end of their duration. You have what amounts to a Persisted set of 4 clones.

If you want to start throwing in DM decisions to discussions of these builds, do you really think most DMs will let you abuse Miracle to such a degree, given that the spell very directly evokes the ire of your god?

Second you can't dip into cleric to power arcane spells according to the errata.

Meh. There are other ways.

[Gralamin]

A few Possible Problems With this build.

1. The Text of the spell does not mention Spell-like abilities being duplicated. Because it lists what is duplicated, Spell-likes do not get copied.
2. Aside from that, there is the suicide factor. The idea is, Eventually, The hitpoints will be 0, even though D&D rules round up to 1, at a point it becomes very small [most dm's would call it 0]. To see if this is actually a factor [Assuming you have average hp of 31 before con], I generated this table:
   {table="head"]Round|# Of Clones*|HP Of "New" clones
   1|2|7.75
   2|8|1.97
   3|24|0.49
   4|68|0.12
   5|188|0.03
   6|516|0.01
   7|1412|0.002
   8|3860|0.0004
   9|10548|0.0001
   10|28820|0.00003[/table]
   *With the Formula: (Clone Gen_[x-1] - Clone Gen_[x-3])*2+Clone Gen_[x-1]
   (or in my excel file =(B4-B2)*2+B4)

This basically means, they will not have enough hit points to live, and will collapse back, dealing 20 points of damage to you.

Edit: I apparently didn't notice that each can do it twice. Annoying. But it also pushes the damage up to 40 points of damage, enough to bring you to -9 (you've gotta watch it when a slight breeze can cause your clone to kheel over)

[GryffonDurime]

A few Possible Problems With this build.
The Text of the spell does not mention Spell-like abilities being duplicated. Because it lists what is duplicated, Spell-likes do not get copied.

Less problematic than you'd expect; the spell claims that each clone has the same class levels as I do. Ergo, each clone has taken levels in Archmage and has the SLAs from the class feature.

Aside from that, there is the suicide factor. The idea is, Eventually, The hitpoints will be 0, even though D&D rules round up to 1, at a point it becomes very small [most dm's would call it 0]. To see if this is actually a factor [Assuming you have average hp of 31 before con], I generated this table:
{table="head"]Round|# Of Clones*|HP Of "New" clones
1|2|7.75
2|6|1.97
3|14|0.49
4|30|0.12
5|62|0.03
6|126|0.01
7|254|0.002
8|510|0.0004
9|1022|0.0001
10|2046|0.00003[/table]
*With the Formula: (Previous Clone Gen - Previous to the Previous Clone Gen)*2+Previous Clone Gen
(or in my excel file =(B3-B2)*2+B3)[/LIST]

I'd argue that rounding up means each clone would always have at least 1 HP, or rather, that they have at least MORE than 0 HP.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Just wondering, as I can't get to the book right now, do the clones get to use your feats? In which case, toughness's flat HP bonus would be good medicine for them.

[Gralamin]

Less problematic than you'd expect; the spell claims that each clone has the same class levels as I do. Ergo, each clone has taken levels in Archmage and has the SLAs from the class feature.


I'd argue that rounding up means each clone would always have at least 1 HP, or rather, that they have at least MORE than 0 HP.

First: I Fixed up my math.
Second: The 2nd point is more DM Fiat. It basically saids "Your HP is so small, that it might as well be 0." However this actually would leave them comatose, so your thing ends, you just don't take any damage (unless a clone falls off a cliff).
Third: On the RAW Debate - That is one way to read it. However it doesn't say they get any benefits from the class levels (which would be an absurd argument, so I won't), So I concede there.

Interesting notes:
By the time You get to the 300th round (About 30 minutes into it), You have 1.1*10^131 clones, the most recent generation (of 6.97*10^130 clones) has 7.47*10^-180 Hit Points. That should be considered 0.


Edit: And ^ just fixed that problem with Toughness. A Flat bonus such as that should add +3, if you care to take it out. If you don't (since it just states they have 1/4, which would generally include Toughness, They are awake for about another gen.

[GryffonDurime]

Alternatively, I could just take levels in something that provides them with an ability to heal themselves...Sentinel of Bharri does nicely, and it's a full casting progression.

All arguments of such things aside, you shouldn't need to get to Generations higher than 6 at a time, really. By that point you've gotten so many free Wishes, you're dripping in more artifacts than body parts and if you're an Epic Caster, you've got access to enough spell slots to mitigate any epic spell you can dream of.

Just because the loop can theoretically continue ad nauseum doesn't mean that it must to be effective.

[Gralamin]

I am now (for fun) Calculating the generation of clones that would take up the surface area of an earth sized planet.

(edit: Assuming this is true -
510 065 600 square kilometer = 5 490 300 425 045 294 square foot
And therefore: 1.09*10¹⁵ Squares

Change to above Formula (-Gen[x-10]) on the end (changes my interesting facts above)

The 35th Generation (of 2.41*10¹⁵ people) will cover the surface area of the Earth, leaving an excess of 1.31*10¹⁵ People. Enough to Cover the Surface of ANOTHER Earth Sized Planet!)

[Jack Mann]

If the hp is rounded up each time, then it will never go down to 0. The first generation that would go below 1 is rounded up. The next generation get .25 hp... which is also rounded up to one, and so on and so forth. It will never get below .25 hp.