Natural Spell

[brian c]

Sir Giacomo's arguments aside, the general consensus is that Druids are overpowered. For the campaign world that I'm setting up, I want to nerf the overpowered classes and use ToB to help melee so to achieve some semblance of balance. One thing I propose to do for Druids is to make the Natural Spell feat affect only one shape, and it can be taken multiple times to affect multiple shapes. Would this make a big difference in the Druid's power level?

[Dhavaer]

It might be more balanced to make it a metamagic feat with a +1 or +2 spell level modifier.

[asqwasqw]

Or get rid of it entirely. Druids won't be underpowered, they just have to pick whether to go into melee or cast spells.

Oh, and to the original poster, since most characters only use one creature they wildshape into anyways, it doesn't change much. When they level up, they just have to use a feat.

[FdL]

Dump Wildshape and make them use the PHB II Shapeshifting alternative class feature. Which is really nice, is simpler and as it's incompatible with Wildshape (and so Natural Spell it's out of the question) it's not susceptible of abuse.
I think your players will thank you.

[the_tick_rules]

it'd help, if ya wanna go for it. But i prefer having party work together at full power than cutting down classes.

[FdL]

Not much of a cutdown IMHO, just a better thought and fairer rule option.

[Ulzgoroth]

I favor banning Natural Spell and leaving it at that.

Shapeshift may be better balanced than Wild Shape, but the ability to turn into animals is a lot more interesting than the ability to acquire a specific set of natural weapons, speed, size, and I don't recall what else while taking an arbitrary appearance.

[Vaniel]

I kinda like natural spell

I have been discussing it with a friend of mine, and we found two fixes, that helped a little for downgrading the powers of the druid without banning anything.

Druids would use the Shapeshift variant in the PHB2

Natural Spell: Metamagic +2 or 3 slots
OR
Natural Spell: Can be used 3+Wis mod per day

For the second one, a new feat

Extra Natural Spell: Gains the ability to use Natural spell four more times per day than the characters usually does.

[barawn]

Sir Giacomo's arguments aside, the general consensus is that Druids are overpowered. For the campaign world that I'm setting up, I want to nerf the overpowered classes and use ToB to help melee so to achieve some semblance of balance. One thing I propose to do for Druids is to make the Natural Spell feat affect only one shape, and it can be taken multiple times to affect multiple shapes. Would this make a big difference in the Druid's power level?

I have to agree with the "make Natural Spell a metamagic feat", at +2. I can't fathom why they didn't do this, to be honest. Think about what it's allowing them to do - avoid a normal limitation in spellcasting. The two other feats that are similar (Still Spell/Silent Spell) both are metamagic feats, and if Eschew Materials wasn't so limited, it'd be a metamagic feat as well.

The restriction that you're suggesting wouldn't hinder druids too much, in my mind. They'd just more frequently use the form that they take Natural Spell in, and if they're clever, it won't hurt them much at all.

[MaxMahem]

I've thought long and hard about, and I think the best treatment for Natural Spell is to turn it into a Metamagic feat with a +1 spell level adjustment.

Basically Natural Spell combines the metamagic feats of still and silence spell into one feat. This would normally give you a +2 spell level adjustment, however Natural Spell (at least as described in the PHB) doesn't actually give you all of the advantages of those to feats.

Natural Spell replaces you're normal human gestures and sounds with those of you're animal form. So unlike Silence Spell you are unable to use a natural spell in an area of silence, and casting a natural spell should provoke a listen check. Likewise, you could not cast a natural spell if you were bound helplessly or if you were grappelling with another creature.

But given it's effect compared to most other metamagic feats I still feel a +1 spell level adjustment is appropriate.

---

Also, it's important to remember that many (in fact most) druid spell require a divine focus (typically holly or some such) that may not be accessible to the character after they have wildshaped.

[NullAshton]

"You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form."

Thus, focuses still work.

[brian c]

Alright, so I'm seeing people say that a +1 or +2 metamagic would be balanced. My idea was based on fluff, that just because you know how to make the right sounds and motions in bear form doesn't mean you can make those motions in another form. Now I'm thinking that I'll make it a metamagic feat, selectable specifically for each form and multiple times allowed, with a +1 spell level adjustment.

[Quietus]

I've always wondered why they released Natural Spell AND Surrogate Spellcasting, which let you do the same thing.

Either way, I'd say that if you're going to change it, either give it a +1 spell level mod, OR, ban it outright. A stilled/silent spell can still be cast in animal form, and has other benefits besides.

[TomTheRat]

Ditch it. You can smash, or you can cast, but not both. Doing both at the same time is what makes Clerics so op.

[Ramza00]

+2 metamagic, but allow you to do it spontaneously. You can drop a spell that is 2 levels higher to spontaneously apply the metamagic feat to the spell with no adjustment of casting time. This benefit is to make up for the fact you get more benefits from still and silent spell.

Or make it +1 and require still and silent spell as pre-requisitie feats.

Or ban it outright

Making it +1 is not powerful of a power reduction in my mind.

[OzymandiasVolt]

I've always wondered why they released Natural Spell AND Surrogate Spellcasting, which let you do the same thing.

Because Surrogate Spell works for things that aren't wildshaped druids. Things like awakened animals, creatures with tentacles, etc.

[Dausuul]

Ditch it. You can smash, or you can cast, but not both. Doing both at the same time is what makes Clerics so op.

I have to agree. Scrap Natural Spell, scrap Divine Power, make Righteous Might into a touch-range buff instead of personal, and swap ranger and druid animal companions. That mostly fixes druids and clerics.

Wizards are tougher, since you basically have to go through the spell list and prune all the obnoxious spells. A good place to start is anything that lets you cast extra spells in a round (celerity, time stop) and all polymorph-type effects...

[Quietus]

Making it +1 is not powerful of a power reduction in my mind.

It is when you consider that if the druid wants to be able to cast all their spells in Wild Shape, they're essentially casting spells as a character of two levels lower. Or, you can simply make it so that you CAN'T cast a natural spell unless you ARE in wild shape.

Because Surrogate Spell works for things that aren't wildshaped druids. Things like awakened animals, creatures with tentacles, etc.

Yes, but they have the SAME EFFECT. Animal/unusual form -> Able to cast. There's no need to have two feats that do the same thing.

[Person_Man]

There are many possible solutions to this:

• Druids cannot talk while in Wildshape form. They can cast spells if they have Natural Spell, but they can't otherwise communicate. If you include a large amount of roleplaying between encounters, they'll have to choose between burning through their Wildshape uses, or not participating.
  
• Have a large number of encounters (4-8) per game day. The Druid will need to burn through spells to survive in combat and to help heal the party. And more importantly, he'll begin to ration his spell use, just in case something really bad happens. "All day" classes will be just as effective in the first combat as they are in the last one, assuming the Druid and other divine casters keep them healed, as they should.
  
• Run an urban campaign, where the presence of any non-farm animals cause the town guard to be called. Perhaps its illegal to have certain types of animals/monsters in town without a permit. Perhaps there's a large circus in town, which hunts down and captures exotic creatures. It would be unfortunate if the Ringleader and his huge band of freak-show thugs wanted to capture anything they could force to perform. I guess you better lay low, and avoid animal forms...
  
• When in dungeons/sewers/abandoned ruins/etc, you can use passages of alternating sizes, with various types of encounters in them. Narrow passages will severely limit the Druid's ability to stay in any of his large and more powerful forms.

Problem solved, no house rule needed.

[TomTheRat]

Problem solved, no house rule needed.

How exactly does asking GMs to tailor their adventures around one player's overpoweredness solve anything at all?

[Ramza00]

It is when you consider that if the druid wants to be able to cast all their spells in Wild Shape, they're essentially casting spells as a character of two levels lower. Or, you can simply make it so that you CAN'T cast a natural spell unless you ARE in wild shape.

With the number of wildshape forms you have access to, and the number of buffs you can cast prior to wildshape that last for hours, days, or 10 mins a level (use a rod of extend). Doing 2 lvls lower is not enough.

If you limit the number of wildshape forms, and/or say your buffs dont' cary over you have to recast them, then you may have a point.

[Starsinger]

I think making it a metamagic feat is a wonderful solution, simply since, Druids can't spontaneously apply metamagic. If they want to be able to cast Cure Light Wounds while they're a dire wombat (or whatever), they have to prepare it as a Wild Cure Light Wounds, which means it takes up 2nd level spell slot a Druid could've used for a second level spell. And if the druid never ends up needing to cast Dispel Magic while in the shape of a dire wombat, or whatever combination of wild shapes/spells, it's basically a spell slot wasted.

[Iron_Mouse]

You can go through a lot of trouble to "fix" Natural Spell, or you can do yourself a favor and simply ban it.

Heck, it's not like druids are underpowered without it, or that there isn't a ton of other feats they can take.

Still Spell + Silent Spell and they can still cast in animal form if they want it so bad.

[brian c]

You can go through a lot of trouble to "fix" Natural Spell, or you can do yourself a favor and simply ban it.

Heck, it's not like druids are underpowered without it, or that there isn't a ton of other feats they can take.

Still Spell + Silent Spell and they can still cast in animal form if they want it so bad.

I understand the sentiment, but I don't want to ban it outright. I think that making it meta-magic helps balancing without "going through a lot of trouble"

[Skjaldbakka]

I highly recommend using the PHBII shapechanger variant. I am playing one in a Planescape game, and it rocks.

This variant gives you specific forms that give certain stat mods, but the descriptive flavor is up to the player. It also allows it at will, as a swift action.

You get a predatory form at level 1 , and later an aerial form, a ferocious slayer form, and then an elemental type form.

I think it is balanced because it keeps your base stats, and gives a bonus to them in the changed form, and does not allow natural. It is also very likely going to be standard for 4.0 druids.

[Diamondeye]

The more I think about it, the more I think banning it is the right idea. Still Spell + Silent Spell allows the use of lots of spells while wildshaped and Eschew Materials should allow the use of the rest.

[TomTheRat]

The only way that Natural Spell being a metamagic +level feat could be fair is that once a spell is prepared "natural" style, it can only be cast IN natural form. IE, you prep a natural CLW, and you CANNOT cast it in your native form.

And I'm bumping this until Person Man replies to me.

[Reinboom]

Would getting rid of the wild shape time limit, so that it may always be on, and change the wild shape x/day into known forms work better? At each wild shape improvement step, you may 'learn' a new form.
This would definately assist in making them less of a jack of all species.

[ZeroNumerous]

I can only suggest forcing Druids to take the Shapeshift variant from PHBII. No need to do anything to the system yourself, since Wizards fixed their mistake themselves.

[Fhaolan]

The only way that Natural Spell being a metamagic +level feat could be fair is that once a spell is prepared "natural" style, it can only be cast IN natural form. IE, you prep a natural CLW, and you CANNOT cast it in your native form.

And I'm bumping this until Person Man replies to me.

That's how I would do it, if I found I had a problem with druids. A metamagic feat +1 or +2 levels, and once a spell is metamagic'ed, you have to cast it in the form it was prepared for. I also thought about having it so that you need to take the feat for each form you wish to cast with.

However, I've not had a druid get abusive in my games. More luck than anything, as far as I can tell. I've watched CoDzilla in action in other games where I was a player, but as a DM it hasn't come up yet.