Is This really how stunned works?

[Lostintransit]

Hi all,

I have a problem - Does stunned make your character helpless? Looking at my DMG I'm not quite sure.

The reason for wanting to know is I have a character idea for tomorrow's game, it involves an assassain class that can make X coup de graces per round, where X is the number of your meleee strikes +1.

I was pondering on using the dust of sneezing and choking (DC15 fort - failed 2d6 CON dam, pass stunned 5d4 rounds) letting people pass the save (we are level 13) or take stupid CON drain (It's also got a radius of 20ft so can hit lots of targets) Then making coupe de graces on all the stunned people. The class lets you deal your damage as STR, DEX or CON drain if you score a crit (which coup de grace is) meaning I will deal at least 7d6 sneak attack + other damage to the CON, reducing it to 0 or less killing out right.

On pge 301 of my DMG it says that a stunned character can't take any actions. Paralyzed says that a character unable to take actions is paralyzed which is listed under helpless. Helpless also says that a character at an opponents mercy is helpless and stunned says that the character drops everything held and can't take any actions what so ever (not even free actions!) That sounds like at another persons mercy to me!

I'm pretty certain thats the way it works but I just want to be sure....

So anyone else think thats what it is?

Oh, also can you take free actions while moving? (I.e. move 10ft take free action then make last 20ft of your move action?)

Regards

Lost

[NEO|Phyte]

Stunned is not Helpless.

[lotofsnow]

I would say that stunned would only equal helpless if the rules stated it specifically, but they don't. In paralyzed, the rules actually state the character is helpless.

[Lostintransit]

Stunned is not Helpless.

Thats not exactly a well described response!

seriously though, if you can't take any actions at all, not even talking or wiggling your toes, that sounds like your at the mercy of whoever wonders past. Or are you seriously saying that if someone is stock still and cannot defend themselves in any way then they aren't helpless?????



Regards

Lost

[Stephen_E]

No, Stunned isn't helpless and the DMG doesn't say that.

The DMG doesn't say that if you are unabale to take actions you're paralysed.

It says that if you're paralysed you can't act.

These are two completely different statements.

Stunned people can't act, but that has nothing to do with been paralysed.

Your argument would be like me saying you and your sister (hypothetical sister) both have brown hair. Your sister is female so you must be female as well!

Stunned has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

Paraylization has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

The similarity ends there.
Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.
Stunned makes you drop what you're holding. Paralyzation makes you unable to drop what you're holding.
Stunned gives you a -2 AC penalty. Paralysation makes you Helpless which has a whole range of effects on your AC, none of which is a -2.

Stephen

[Lostintransit]

No, Stunned isn't helpless and the DMG doesn't say that.

The DMG doesn't say that if you are unabale to take actions you're paralysed.

It says that if you're paralysed you can't act.

These are two completely different statements.

Stunned people can't act, but that has nothing to do with been paralysed.

Your argument would be like me saying you and your sister (hypothetical sister) both have brown hair. Your sister is female so you must be female as well!

Stunned has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

Paraylization has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

The similarity ends there.
Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.
Stunned makes you drop what you're holding. Paralyzation makes you unable to drop what you're holding.
Stunned gives you a -2 AC penalty. Paralysation makes you Helpless which has a whole range of effects on your AC, none of which is a -2.

Stephen

I was using the paraylzed as an example!

What I was trying to get at is: um, well lets use an example:

2 people are fighting each other. Person A has a sword and shield, person B has a dagger. Person A is stunned for lets say 10 rounds, drops both his sword and shield(as per the rules). Now person A cannot take actions (As per pge 301) actions include moving, talking, attacking etc. So all person B has to do is walk over and cut there throat, as person A cannot take actions, not even to defend him/herself.

(For example get a friend/family member to stand stock still, taking no action then see how easy it would be to get to them(remember they can't move at all!)

Does that not sound like at an opponent completle mercy?

Thats kinda what i was getting at, also thanks for the replies!



Regards

Lost

[JaronK]

And yet, by the rules, you cannot coup de gras a stunned person, so clearly there's a difference.

Think of stunned as "the target is reeling from the blow, spending all their energy just to stay upright, and is unable to take any conscerted action." As such, they're an easier target than normal, but they're not fully helpless.

JaronK

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.

I think that's the main point right there. I don't think there's a single thing that makes you helpless without also dropping your Dex to effectively zero. Meanwhile, being just stunned only effectively reduces your Dexterity to ten (or eight if you want to count it with the additional AC penalty)*, and even then that only applies to AC. Stunning does not affect your Reflex saves in any form.

So, yeah, being stunned and unable to act doesn't drop you to being completely helpless. For any character with a relatively good Dexterity, it just makes them a little klutzy when it comes to defending themselves from most attacks. But they can still act reflexively and try to duck and weave when necessary. They just don't have the required faculties to act with strong intention.

[hr]* Though this analogy doesn't really apply if your Dex is below ten to begin with...

[Lostintransit]

I think that's the main point right there. I don't think there's a single thing that makes you helpless without also dropping your Dex to effectively zero. Meanwhile, being just stunned only effectively reduces your Dexterity to ten (or eight if you want to count it with the additional AC penalty)*, and even then that only applies to AC. Stunning does not affect your Reflex saves in any form.

So, yeah, being stunned and unable to act doesn't drop you to being completely helpless. For any character with a relatively good Dexterity, it just makes them a little klutzy when it comes to defending themselves from most attacks. But they can still act reflexively and try to duck and weave when necessary. They just don't have the required faculties to act with strong intention.

<hr>* Though this analogy doesn't really apply if your Dex is below ten to begin with...

This is why I'm not sure..... because Helpless also says at your opponents completle mercy, and not being able to move in any form (you can't stand up, you can't get another weapon, you can't leave your square, you can't climb or swim etc) says to me that the character isn't 'defending themselves' ,they are at the complelte mercy of other characters.

They are basically stunned on the spot, with the moment of the stunning causng them to reflextivley drop whats in their hands.

For example under paraylzed it gives the example of the hold person spell (pge 241 PHB) which says "the subject becomes paraylzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speach.***it then talks about saving throws to break it***"

This is identically the same result as stunned, stunned characters cannot take any actions, even speach. so if a charcter that can't take actions is helpless it follows that a stunned character is helpless????

Gaaaahhhh!!!


Regards

Lost

(P.S. Thanks for the lively responses though they are very helpful, and keep em coming! )

[....]

If you're stunned you can't be coup de graced.

Everyone's told that. The rules are pretty clear. If you want to make it so that you can coup de grace a stunned person, go ahead, but the rules say no.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

This is why I'm not sure..... because Helpless also says at your opponents completle mercy, and not being able to move in any form (you can't stand up, you can't get another weapon, you can't leave your square, you can't climb or swim etc) says to me that the character isn't 'defending themselves' ,they are at the complelte mercy of other characters.

Being unable to act is not the same as being unable to move. A stunned character can move, albeit only reflexively. A stunned character is not at his or her opponent's mercy, therefore a stunned character is not helpless.

This also holds for being Dazed, by the way. A dazed character cannot freely act, but is still able to react to danger.

[Attilargh]

This is identically the same result as stunned, stunned characters cannot take any actions, even speach. so if a charcter that can't take actions is helpless it follows that a stunned character is helpless????

No. A raven is black, and a raven is a bird, but that doesn't mean all birds are black, or that everything black is a bird.

A Stunned character can not take Actions. A surprised character can take no actions during a surprise round, but he is far from Helpless.

[Lostintransit]

If you're stunned you can't be coup de graced.

Everyone's told that. The rules are pretty clear. If you want to make it so that you can coup de grace a stunned person, go ahead, but the rules say no.

I'm not trying to change the rules as written... what I was trying to get as was:

"Does being stuned leave you at your opponents mercy? If so then as under Helpless you can be coupe de graced."

the confusion lies in the text under Helpless:

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponents mercy. *** Game text follows about DEX etc***"

(Bold added to bit Im not sure about)

The problem lies in the way people percieve completely helpless, I'm seeing as being unable to take any actions, but i'm thinking everyone else thinks its...well I'm not sure? possible i wasn't clear enough?


Regards

Lost

EDIT: saw peoples posts after I'd finished typing, that dazed thing makes senses actually! but no wait a sec.... I'd still see dazed as being unable to defend yourself, you'd be all groggy and stuff!!!!

Darn it i think this is going to be a GM's call. Better talk to him about it....


Thanks eveyone for the replies!!!

[Alleine]

Stunned ≠ idly standing there and letting someone kill you.

I'd say a stunned person has their senses a bit dulled, base motorfunctions still there and reflexes are in working, yet worsened, condition.

Ex: You stun me with whatever it is you have, I sit there a bit dazed, and when you pull out your sword to slice my through, my body runs through its self-preservation routine, throwing all effort into keeping the sword away from my vital spots.

Paralyzed: I stand there in mindless horror as I try to bring up my arms to stop the blade, but nothing is happening. All motorfunctions ceased and I die. Also, I probably fell over because of the lack of ability to auto-correct any balance issues I've got.

Think of stunned a you would a person punched in the nose, the nose being a sensitive place, a person is stunned when they get hit. It wears off rather quickly, like soon enough to get out of the way of a coup de grace.

[PinkysBrain]

You can't make move actions while stunned but you don't fall prone either. Simply standing upright forces you to move, avoiding attacks forces you to move (which you can do, since you only have -2 to AC) ergo you can move (inside your square) while stunned.

[Lostintransit]

Stunned ≠ idly standing there and letting someone kill you.

I'd say a stunned person has their senses a bit dulled, base motorfunctions still there and reflexes are in working, yet worsened, condition.

Ex: You stun me with whatever it is you have, I sit there a bit dazed, and when you pull out your sword to slice my through, my body runs through its self-preservation routine, throwing all effort into keeping the sword away from my vital spots.

Paralyzed: I stand there in mindless horror as I try to bring up my arms to stop the blade, but nothing is happening. All motorfunctions ceased and I die. Also, I probably fell over because of the lack of ability to auto-correct any balance issues I've got.

Think of stunned a you would a person punched in the nose, the nose being a sensitive place, a person is stunned when they get hit. It wears off rather quickly, like soon enough to get out of the way of a coup de grace.

Yeah, I'm starting to think that way, but it still doesn't feel right. ( I don't know why!! )

Thanks for the reply!

Regards

Lost

[Yuki Akuma]

It is not "the GM's call" (well, it is if he wants to house rule it). A Stunned character is not Helpless. He just isn't. You cannot coup de grace a Stunned character, because Stunned and Helpless are entirely unrelated.

How is this hard to understand? A Stunned character is reeling from a blow; he drops what he's holding because he's in a daze. It takes him six seconds to gather his faculties to keep on fighting. He isn't as agile as normal, but he's still able to defend himself.

[Amiria]

Just an aside, when you are paralyzed then you are helpless. But you can still take purely mental actions, like using psionic powers or casting a silenced Dimension Door. So for some characters being paralyzed is less "helpless" than being stunned.

Stunned = no actions at all, but not helpless.

Paralyzed = only purely mental actions, but otherwise helpless.

[Lostintransit]

It is not "the GM's call" (well, it is if he wants to house rule it). A Stunned character is not Helpless. He just isn't. You cannot coup de grace a Stunned character, because Stunned and Helpless are entirely unrelated.

How is this hard to understand? A Stunned character is reeling from a blow; he drops what he's holding because he's in a daze. It takes him six seconds to gather his faculties to keep on fighting. He isn't as agile as normal, but he's still able to defend himself.

It's not "Hard to understand" As I saw both sides before even posting the thread, I was trying to see what everone else thought.

It all comes down to how you percieve not taking actions. (Example you cannot, open or close a door, fight defensively, take total defense, pick up, draw or put away an item, most of which require the movement of the arms or body parts in some fashion.)

This at least to a part of me, seems to suggest that the body/person while stunned cannot make the neccesasary actions to defend itself. Now I realise by the LETTER of the rules (I.e. RAW) that unless their is a game defined term for "Or otherwise completely at an opponents mercy" that this bit of text is entirely subjective! which is what another part of me thinks of when thinking of stunned!

So yes I agree with everything all the other posters have said while at the same time entering into a lively debate on the nature of an undefined term in the rulebook!

(A side note, the DM has already changed a number of rules mid game without notifing the players, and he takes the stance that rule 0 of "the GM is god" a little to seriously.....)



Regards

Lost

[Citizen Joe]

The SRD details this very well linky

[Lostintransit]

Right I'm off to discuss this losely defined term with my GM. But I'm pretty sure he will take the stance you lot did which is good!

thank you for all the replies it's nice to know that the people on these forums are so friendly!


Regards

Lost

[Yuki Akuma]

..But it isn't loosely defined...

There aren't two stances on this. It's splled out pretty well in the rulebooks what Stunned does and does not do.

[Matthew]

Here's what the SRD says:

Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

That's your lot. Nothing about being at your opponent's mercy, nothing about being helpless.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think the main problem is this: you're reading between the lines. Stop that, it isn't helpful.

[Citizen Joe]

I think part of the problem is that the first line of Helpless description includes some examples that can make you so. However, if you strip that out and just go to the specific conditions, they will each say whether or not you are also Helpless.

[Citizen Joe]

I was just thinking how nasty that dust would be in an ambush situation. 5d4 rounds of free sneak attacks with no retalliation.

[Fourth Tempter]

Right I'm off to discuss this losely defined term with my GM. But I'm pretty sure he will take the stance you lot did which is good!

thank you for all the replies it's nice to know that the people on these forums are so friendly!


Regards

Lost

It is not loosely defined. It tells you precisely what it does. "Taking actions" refers to move, standard, full-round, et cetera actions in D&D; defending yourself does not consume actions.

Stunned inflicts penalties and forces you to drop what you are holding, as well as making you unable to take actions. This is not the same as Helpless, which is also clearly defined. Do not attempt to conflate the two.

[Lostintransit]

I think the main problem is this: you're reading between the lines. Stop that, it isn't helpful.

Do you know whats funny? having returned after a small chat with my GM, he has decreeed it to be the way I originally read it, that stunned makes you helpless. He didn't even have a discussion on it, I asked if thats what it meant , he looked it up and went, yup thats what it does. He didn't have the uncertainty I did! Well i guess that makes it house ruled then! Well I'm now off to plan and make my assassain of death!

P.s thanks for the info though!



Regards

Lost

[Fourth Tempter]

That is a terrible ruling, both balance-wise and interpretation-wise. There is no way to rationally derive it from the text of the Stunning condition. You may consider worrying about what other rules your DM may grossly misinterpret.

[Yuki Akuma]

Monks just got a lot stronger.