Why Don't Clerics Get Sense Motive

[absentshadow]

I have been playing in a campaign as a cleric recently and I asked the DM why clerics don't have sense motive because it seemed to me, as a cleric of Cuthbert, that if I where to unloose holy retribution on someone I should first know that he was telling the truth. It also seemed to me that a cleric should have gone through training in understanding his god and church process to also be able to sense when peoples words where true and when someone's intentions spoke with honesty, not to mention that Paladin's get it and that clerics are wisdom based and it would just make sense that a very wise person would be good at learning to tell when someone was being untruthful.

Well to conclude my DM could not find a sufficient answer to the question so we considered house-ruling it in, but before we did that I wanted to check and see if there was any reason anyone else could think of that would make sense for clerics not to have Sense Motive as a class skill.

Already I can see some prestige class things that could be pushed out of whack if, lets say, they where to require a Divine caster able to cast 2nd level spells with a sense motive with 6 ranks, but I do not know of any right now so feel free to bring them up.

[Damionte]

no idea.......

Then again I've met no one more gullible than people involved in relegion. ;p

[Vuzzmop]

I agree with you, that doesn't make sense, however, the cleric class is too overpowered to add another skill. If you want them to have sense motive, take away something else.

[Orzel]

Clerics have gods to tell them send "something is up". Good o' "It happened for a reason". If a cleric doesn't get an omen, he'l beleive you unless you lie poorly.

Paladins on the other hand get the skill because they steroetypical trust no one fully but themselves and other paladins/clerics of the same faith. They don't need omens, they make omens.


That and the weakness of the cleric is their skills.

[Dark Dork]

How about houseruling in that if you choose the Law Domain you get Sense Motive as a class skill instead of boosting Law Spells? That would fit the Cuthbert-Avenging-Judge-of-Death Persona.

[Swooper]

I agree with you, that doesn't make sense, however, the cleric class is too overpowered to add another skill. If you want them to have sense motive, take away something else.

...yes, because another class skill makes ALL the difference.

Personally I'd just say houserule it right in. My group houseruled in Intimidate for fighters long before 3.5 came. If we think some aspect of the game doesn't fit, we just change it, simple as that. If you run across a prestige class or something you want, who's limiting factor is requiring many ranks in Sense Motive, just have your DM take a look at it and see if he wants to tweak it (upping the ranks required would be the simple way in some situations) before you take it.

[Swooper]

Double post, sorry.

[TheOOB]

Meh, class skills in general don't make much sense. Theres only one skill the would be "overpowered" to give to everyone and thats use magic device, other then that I can think of a legitimate reason for any class to have any skill.

[Yechezkiel]

Just cast Guidance, roll Sense Motive, and assume whatever the result your God said so.

[JaronK]

Meh, class skills in general don't make much sense. Theres only one skill the would be "overpowered" to give to everyone and thats use magic device, other then that I can think of a legitimate reason for any class to have any skill.

And diplomacy. Don't forget that.

JaronK

[Skyserpent]

It's a second level cleric spell called "Zone of Truth" Who needs to sense motive when you can have it explicitly stated?

(Sure it can be saved from, but hey, Sense Motive can be beat by bluff.) It's their own way of solving the bluff issue. Albeit one that requires magic. I don't see the big issue.

[Rad]

It's a second level cleric spell called "Zone of Truth" Who needs to sense motive when you can have it explicitly stated?

(Sure it can be saved from, but hey, Sense Motive can be beat by bluff.) It's their own way of solving the bluff issue. Albeit one that requires magic. I don't see the big issue.

One f the issues there is that High-Will-save classes usually do not have Bluff and classes with Bluff usually have poor will saves; having both Zone of Truth and Sense Motive allows you to target almost anybody with one of the two.

That said, no cleric has skill points. Every cleric needs to put the ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (Religion) and Concentration and they only get 2 points per level. Honestly, what clerics have in their class list is irrelevant unless they are also given more skill points.
Bottom line, I do not recall if cloistered clerics have Sense Motive, it would be ok to give it to them if you want too, as they are seriously nerfed down.

Hope this helps

[Merlin the Tuna]

One f the issues there is that High-Will-save classes usually do not have Bluff and classes with Bluff usually have poor will saves; having both Zone of Truth and Sense Motive allows you to target almost anybody with one of the two.

Woot bards.

[Accersitus]

One f the issues there is that High-Will-save classes usually do not have Bluff and classes with Bluff usually have poor will saves; having both Zone of Truth and Sense Motive allows you to target almost anybody with one of the two.

That said, no cleric has skill points. Every cleric needs to put the ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (Religion) and Concentration and they only get 2 points per level. Honestly, what clerics have in their class list is irrelevant unless they are also given more skill points.
Bottom line, I do not recall if cloistered clerics have Sense Motive, it would be ok to give it to them if you want too, as they are seriously nerfed down.

Hope this helps

That is one paranoid cleric who doesn't trust the divine power of his deity, and has to put lots of ranks in sense motive just in case they make their save.
I know my DM would object if a cleric using zone of truth wanted to make a sense motive on top of that.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Keith Baker seems to agree with you. There's a feat in the Eberron setting (Ecclesiarch) that grants Clerics Sense Motive as a class skill, among other neat bonuses.

In general, though, it's the Paladins that hunt down and question possible evildoers. Clerics are generally strictly holy warriors and/or miracle-workers, not inquisitors.

[JoeFredBob]

That is one paranoid cleric who doesn't trust the divine power of his deity, and has to put lots of ranks in sense motive just in case they make their save.
I know my DM would object if a cleric using zone of truth wanted to make a sense motive on top of that.

I would say it's one *stupid* cleric that doesn't believe people can resist magic sometimes. I can just see the same cleric after casting flamestrike on a rogue:

"Well, I'm glad he's dealt with."
"....but he just dodged out of the way..."
"Nonsense! I called down the wrath of my god upon him! There is no way he could have survived!"
"HE'S STABBING YOUR SPLEEN!!"
"LALALA! NOT LISTENING!"

The reality is that D&D gods are not all powerful (unlike the modern religions you're thinking of believe their god is), and magic granted by a god is still just magic, and can be resisted. Every spell caster will recognize this.

[Draz74]

"Well, I'm glad he's dealt with."
"....but he just dodged out of the way..."
"Nonsense! I called down the wrath of my god upon him! There is no way he could have survived!"
"HE'S STABBING YOUR SPLEEN!!"
"LALALA! NOT LISTENING!"

ROFL. Yeah, I agree that a Cleric with absolute trust in his Zone of Truth spell is a fool.

And I favor just giving Clerics Sense Motive as a class skill. If any of them actually buy a high enough Intelligence to have skill points to spend on Sense Motive, they should be rewarded for it. (Clerics are actually a pretty MAD class, and the stereotype full-plate warrior ClericZilla prioritizes every other ability except maybe Dex over Int.)

[Telonius]

The only quasi-mechanical reason I can think of relates to Feinting. It's possible the designers wanted them to be a little more vulnerable to Feinting in combat. It's not immediately clear to me why a Cleric would have an especially good defense against it. Bard, Monk, Paladin, and Rogue get it as a class skill. But while Monk, Paladin, and Rogue could conceivably be good at that kind of "combat sense," it's not immediately clear to me why Bards would. (Or for that matter, why Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians wouldn't). For that matter, the Mystic Theurge PrC gets it as a class skill, despite none of the classes leading up to it getting Sense Motive as a class skill (unless you get some truly bizarre Bard/Paladin combination).

Since Feinting is such an unusual action anyway, I'd say there's really no good crunch reason to prevent the Cleric from having it as a class skill.

[Yechezkiel]

I would say it's one *stupid* cleric that doesn't believe people can resist magic sometimes. I can just see the same cleric after casting flamestrike on a rogue:

"Well, I'm glad he's dealt with."
"....but he just dodged out of the way..."
"Nonsense! I called down the wrath of my god upon him! There is no way he could have survived!"
"HE'S STABBING YOUR SPLEEN!!"
"LALALA! NOT LISTENING!"

The reality is that D&D gods are not all powerful (unlike the modern religions you're thinking of believe their god is), and magic granted by a god is still just magic, and can be resisted. Every spell caster will recognize this.

If you're playing a Clr/Pld/whatever of a D&D god you really should believe that your god IS in fact, all powerful. Just because you know the mechanics and you've read Dieties & Demigods is a poor excuse for the lack of roleplaying you're suggesting.

There's gotta be a little ignorance on the part of the faithful in an RPG (maybe not as drastic as your example, but SOME).

[Everyman]

When it comes down to it, clerics don't get Sense Motive as a class skill because they (generally) are not very inquisitive folks. They are generally given the fluff of priests and "band-aids". Sense Motive plays no part in teaching people about the glory of a god or healing folks. Even the most scholarly clerics really don't have a need of Sense Motive.

Of course, there are instances where having Sense Motive would make a great deal of sense for a cleric (such as your St. C cleric). In those instances, I would suggest removing one skill and replacing it with another...with the understanding that you may never go back. Considering the cleric's class list, I would probably take away Diplomacy and allow you to have Sense Motive.

[Telonius]

When it comes down to it, clerics don't get Sense Motive as a class skill because they (generally) are not very inquisitive folks. They are generally given the fluff of priests and "band-aids". Sense Motive plays no part in teaching people about the glory of a god or healing folks. Even the most scholarly clerics really don't have a need of Sense Motive.

I'd tend to disagree with you there. The more scholarly the priest, the less need they have of sensing motives. If you're talking about day-to-day priestly duties, sensing motives is extremely important. "Is that guy sincere in his confession? Why is that person volunteering? Is their heart in the right place? Will my colleague in the hierarchy really support me? Is that family really too poor to give right now, or can I harangue a little more? What is really troubling this person's soul?" Those sorts of questions would, in D&D terms, require the Sense Motive skill. They also form a pretty big chunk of what clergy - in any religion, real or fictional - actually worry about.

[absentshadow]

How about houseruling in that if you choose the Law Domain you get Sense Motive as a class skill instead of boosting Law Spells? That would fit the Cuthbert-Avenging-Judge-of-Death Persona.

I like this, because it is really only the very lawful who would be so inquisitive, for more peaceful cleric they could simply use a spell.

[Awetugiw]

If you're playing a Clr/Pld/whatever of a D&D god you really should believe that your god IS in fact, all powerful. Just because you know the mechanics and you've read Dieties & Demigods is a poor excuse for the lack of roleplaying you're suggesting.

There's gotta be a little ignorance on the part of the faithful in an RPG (maybe not as drastic as your example, but SOME).

Oh, come on... Clerics do typically have high WIS, really. In most D&D settings there is no way a cleric would mistake his deity for all-powerful. He doesn't even have to believe his god is the most powerful of the gods. All that is required of a cleric is devotion to the ideals of his god, submission to the will of his god, and (depending on alignment) fear his god, think his god has the best plans for the world, or something like that.

Of course the cleric must believe that his deity is indeed a god, but that usually isn't much of a problem, considering how common 'miracles' are in D&D.

Of course a cleric SHOULD believe that his god is capable of defeating the foe the cleric is currently fighting. (Of course the god almost always is capable of doing so.) The flaw lies in how much of his deities power the cleric can channel. But there is a very large difference between "my deity is vastly powerful and way above me" and "my deity is omnipotent".

Omnipotence is simply close to ridiculous in a polytheistic setting.

[Wulfenstien]

Whats funny about this is that im the DM of Absentshadow's game. Really what happend here is that our choatic member of the group tryed to coerce the cleric of cuthbert into not only an act of choas but an act of evil. He rolled a very high bluff and absent sadly couldnt do anything to counter it because of said sense motive. Wich i agree it does not make sense a wis based charachter should be able to use most of the wis based skills. Hence the house ruling needless to say this was very amusing to watch because once absent figured out he was lieng absent bludgeoned him with that good ol' destruction domain smite, needless to say i was amused.

[Belteshazzar]

And this is why I think clerics and paladins need to have a clearer distinction between them like the cloistered cleric. I mean I don't see much reason for all clerics to be fullplate proficient divine war machines. I mean isn't that what the paladin was made for? Shouldn't clerics have a few more skills and drop the fighter/wizard hybrid act?

[Orzel]

I go by the belief that class skills are the skills most commonly used by the class and therefore more practiced by the class.

Sense Motive's main uses are for detection of:
bluffs
weird feelings
enchantments
secret messages
feints

People tend not to lie heavily to clerics. Most people are very open with members of the clergy, so hunches and bluffs are rarely displayed to clerics. Enchaments? With Detect magic spell at 1st level, few clerics would practice this nor use it often enough to matter. The stereotypical cleric is rarely in stiuations where secret messages are communicated openly. Feints? Clerics aren't warriors naturally, they just don't stink at weaponry.

[Draz74]

When it comes down to it, clerics don't get Sense Motive as a class skill because they (generally) are not very inquisitive folks. They are generally given the fluff of priests and "band-aids". Sense Motive plays no part in teaching people about the glory of a god or healing folks. Even the most scholarly clerics really don't have a need of Sense Motive.

Of course, there are instances where having Sense Motive would make a great deal of sense for a cleric (such as your St. C cleric). In those instances, I would suggest removing one skill and replacing it with another...with the understanding that you may never go back. Considering the cleric's class list, I would probably take away Diplomacy and allow you to have Sense Motive.

Or, you know, just get it cross-class. I mean, isn't that the definition of cross-class skill learning? That you're getting a skill that makes a great deal of sense for this individual, but is very unusual for the class in general?

I mean, people tend to forget that taking cross-class skills (more than a one-rank dip) is actually legal, it's done so rarely. And I can see why it would be somewhat painful, with how few skill points a Cleric gets. (Although frankly that would be true if it were a class skill, too. You're spending the same amount of skill points to max the skill either way.) And a cross-class maxxed skill can actually still be pretty effective, believe it or not, if it has good ability synergy. (And there's no better ability synergy than Wisdom for a Cleric!)

[Yechezkiel]

I mean, people tend to forget that taking cross-class skills (more than a one-rank dip) is actually legal, it's done so rarely. And I can see why it would be somewhat painful, with how few skill points a Cleric gets.

This is probably where this post is coming from... a player was trying to budget their Clr's skill points and realized "Hey! I want this! Why don't I get it?"

I try to get at least a +2 Int into my Clr's, but even as a Human that's a pitiful 5 skills/lvl.

[Demented]

Fighters need Bluff (for Feint) more than Clerics need Sense Motive (for ...?).

It's not a question of 'do they need it', but 'do they have to be exceptionally good at it'.

For the most part, Clerics don't really need to be exceptionally good at sensing someone's motivation. They've got a WIS bonus for that. And Diplomacy. "Now now, don't lie to me, just be honest..."

Fighters don't really need to be exceptionally good at bluffing others. (Or intimidating them for that matter, but they might as well get ONE good charisma skill.) "You know, if I was smart, I would've been a farmer..."

[Duke Malagigi]

And this is why I think clerics and paladins need to have a clearer distinction between them like the cloistered cleric. I mean I don't see much reason for all clerics to be fullplate proficient divine war machines. I mean isn't that what the paladin was made for? Shouldn't clerics have a few more skills and drop the fighter/wizard hybrid act?

The typical cleric is more of a warrior priest or warrior monk, more like the Knights Templar than your typical parish priest or local minister. Paladins and equivalent classes, without levels in cleric or a similar class, are secular warriors gifted with a small amount of divine power. Paladins by themselves are not monks or priests.