Tiny PC

[Fascisticide]

A new player joined my game, she is rogue/monk and her character is of Tiny size.
So I have some questions about the mechanics of a Tiny PC

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

Especially, how to use her rogue talents. The rules state Tiny creatures can't flank. Is there a way she can get around it, like with a reach weapon, so she can use her sneak attack in melee?

What about getting into an opponent's square? Can she use Tumble to get there without provoking an AoO? Can she stay there after she attacks? If she stays in the same square as an opponent, does she get an AoO when the opponent moves away?

[Chineselegolas]

Races of the Wild has some useful feats for smaller characters.

Underfoot Combat:
Need 10 ranks in tumble, but you can now move into squares occupied creatures 2 sizes bigger (Thus Medium creatures for your tiny player) without causing AoO.

Confound the Big Folk:
Once again need 10 ranks in tumble and have Underfoot Combat, but you can count the opponent as flat footed the turn after you move into their square (And thus sneak attack)

[Driderman]

Hmm, the flanking part does certainly suck. Of course, flanking isn't the only way to get sneak attacks. Tumble should work fine for getting within melee reach without provoking attacks of opportunity and Combat Expertise->Improved Feint would probably be a solid investing for a PC unable to flank.

Personally, at first glance I'd rule that the tiny character would get attacks of opportunity on creatures occupying and exiting the same square as the tiny character, but I'd have to look it up to check any specifics

[Cryo]

From SRD:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Alas, not only can't your rogue sneak attack during melee, she can't sneak attack even flat-footed enemies

Unless you intend to pitch your group against a reoccurring halfling BBEG, I suggest giving the tiny rogue rogue-monk something to compensate the short-comings (har har).

[JungeonJeff]

From SRD:


Alas, not only can't your rogue sneak attack during melee, she can't sneak attack even flat-footed enemies

Unless you intend to pitch your group against a reoccurring halfling BBEG, I suggest giving the tiny rogue rogue-monk something to compensate the short-comings (har har).

Im pretty sure the legs have vital spots... and as long as she is within the opponents square, she can strike him in melee.

[Leon]

Let me point you to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_tendon - its always going to be low to the ground and is a rather key spot to strike

[Charity]

Let me point you to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_tendon - its always going to be low to the ground and is a rather key spot to strike

It is not however vital

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
vi·tals /ˈvaɪtlz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vahyt-lz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–plural noun
1. those bodily organs that are essential to life, as the brain, heart, liver, lungs, and stomach.
2. the essential parts of something: the vitals of a democracy.

[Dairun Cates]

Well, in all honesty, there's also a hell of a lot of arteries in the body and major ones all over, and I'm pretty sure your circulatory system is necessary for life.

Also, I didn't think sneak attack used the exact words "vitals". I always read sneak attack as understanding enough anatomy to do more damage. This includes vitals but can also include pressure spots and weak points in the human body.

Edit:
Point to the second part is, if you hit the achilles tendon, it might not outright kill the person, but there's always blood loss, and it does inflict considerable pain and damage on the person. A knife in the thigh is less damaging than one in a major tendon.

[ZeroNumerous]

One quick question: How did your player become tiny to begin with?

A quick solution is hit her with a 'curse' of permanent enlarge person.

[AtomicKitKat]

Well, in all honesty, there's also a hell of a lot of arteries in the body and major ones all over, and I'm pretty sure your circulatory system is necessary for life.

Also, I didn't think sneak attack used the exact words "vitals". I always read sneak attack as understanding enough anatomy to do more damage. This includes vitals but can also include pressure spots and weak points in the human body.

Edit:
Point to the second part is, if you hit the achilles tendon, it might not outright kill the person, but there's always blood loss, and it does inflict considerable pain and damage on the person. A knife in the thigh is less damaging than one in a major tendon.

Not true. If you can find the major femoral artery, you're looking at major bloodloss(mostly because the heart pumps extra hard so that the return journey can fight gravity).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Especially, how to use her rogue talents. The rules state Tiny creatures can't flank. Is there a way she can get around it, like with a reach weapon, so she can use her sneak attack in melee?

Reach weapons double your reach, so 2x0 would still be 0, but you could of course house rule that a tiny creature would get 5-foot reach. (It seems reasonable)

What about getting into an opponent's square? Can she use Tumble to get there without provoking an AoO?

Yes. (Note the feats mentioned above also)

Can she stay there after she attacks?

Yes.

If she stays in the same square as an opponent, does she get an AoO when the opponent moves away?

Yes, a tiny creature threatens the square it occupies.

[Narmoth]

Im pretty sure the legs have vital spots... and as long as she is within the opponents square, she can strike him in melee.

Not the legs, but she should be able to reach the abdomen, especially since most armour, like a chainmail or plate would not be covering the underside of the caracter because of the unlikelyhood of being striken from such an angle.
And if we shall start about anathomy to find vitals in the legs, I suggest making different rules for sneak attack for different armour, since a full plate would hamper acces to most vitals.

[The Mormegil]

She's a monk, right? That excludes all reach weapon, I think.

Anyway, she's, of course, fast and sneaky. I suppose that instead of saying "She's stabbing you in your back" you could say "She hits you again and again making you bleed" or "She jumps and stab your back" or even "She cuts off your knee". The last one particulary hurts...

Anyway, another solution could be bows: use them from less than 9m and you have your sneak attack. How? Being invisible is nice and multiclassing in Shadow Dancer or Assassin is good enough (taking a -20 to hide you can attack. Considering a +8 size, full ranks, +3 for distance, good Dex and a +15 magic object it's likely to be ok anyway). Of course monk levels won't be useful this way...

If you like Feint, Invisible Blade from CW is the natural PrC for you. Kukries are also monk's special weapon. I don't like feint that much... If you are against a better fighter you'll lose, probably.

There is somewhere on web a good build for such a character: if you want ideas, search for "Small but Deadly"

[Fascisticide]

One quick question: How did your player become tiny to begin with?

A quick solution is hit her with a 'curse' of permanent enlarge person.

Well, this is a Munchkin game, which is in large part like D&D but not for very serious games, and the characters are stronger for various reasons.
In Munchkin character creation, you can mix any 2 races. So she is halfling/elf. And you also get to roll for height and weight, which give some small bonus but unually not much. But she rolled very low for height, which makes her one size smaller into Tiny.
And she also rolled very low on weight, shaped like a toothpick, which means she can go through holes one size category smaller than she is... so she can go through holes the size of a toad!

It should be a very interesting character that will add flavor and unexpected twists to the game! I like the idea of this character being a rogue/monk, but I want to make sure her size won't be too much of a problem for hes class abilities.

She should be able to hide and catch opponents unaware, and use her sneak attack. And I'll houserule that reach weapons allow her to threated adjacent squares.

Realism isn't too much of a concern, but other than that I'd like to follow the rules as much as possible.

But I'm still a but confused with the rules about being in the same square as another character. Here is what the SRD says :

Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

First, it says a tiny creature should be able to enter an occupied square, without anything about the size of the creature that occupies it.
Then it says a tiny creature can enter a square occupied by a creature 3 sizes bigger.
I don't understand

Can she enter any occupied square?

Can a larger creature enter a square she occupies? How much larger? could a small creature enter the square where she is?


And if you have any suggestion of interesting stuff for that particular PC... equipement that would be fun, special challenges or opportunities given her size, etc... anything serious or silly, please share!

[Quietus]

Well, this is a Munchkin game, which is in large part like D&D but not for very serious games, and the characters are stronger for various reasons.
In Munchkin character creation, you can mix any 2 races. So she is halfling/elf. And you also get to roll for height and weight, which give some small bonus but unually not much. But she rolled very low for height, which makes her one size smaller into Tiny.
And she also rolled very low on weight, shaped like a toothpick, which means she can go through holes one size category smaller than she is... so she can go through holes the size of a toad!

It should be a very interesting character that will add flavor and unexpected twists to the game! I like the idea of this character being a rogue/monk, but I want to make sure her size won't be too much of a problem for hes class abilities.

She should be able to hide and catch opponents unaware, and use her sneak attack. And I'll houserule that reach weapons allow her to threated adjacent squares.

Realism isn't too much of a concern, but other than that I'd like to follow the rules as much as possible.

But I'm still a but confused with the rules about being in the same square as another character. Here is what the SRD says :



First, it says a tiny creature should be able to enter an occupied square, without anything about the size of the creature that occupies it.
Then it says a tiny creature can enter a square occupied by a creature 3 sizes bigger.
I don't understand

Can she enter any occupied square?

Can a larger creature enter a square she occupies? How much larger? could a small creature enter the square where she is?


And if you have any suggestion of interesting stuff for that particular PC... equipement that would be fun, special challenges or opportunities given her size, etc... anything serious or silly, please share!

Anyone can attempt to enter an occupied square; Things like grapple and bull rush REQUIRE it. What that statement is saying is that someone of 3 sizes or more smaller can move through a target's space - this is because normally, if you were trying to go through an occupied space, (I believe) there's some kind of movement penalty or something to that effect, which isn't occurred because you're so small. That's a vague memory however, this rule hasn't come up in my games, so I'll let someone who's had more experience with it clarify and/or correct me.

[ZeroNumerous]

I'd suggest building the character an item of Enlarge Person X/day or at will. Either one would make the character small, and thus workable for attacking from five feet away.

[the_tick_rules]

crawl into your enemie's head and make them do things.

[Dark Tira]

There are feats and items that extend reach. I think there's one in Lords of Madness and one in Heroes of Horror. A shadowstrike weapon could also do it.

[Fascisticide]

crawl into your enemie's head and make them do things.

I wouldn't have expected anything less coming from someone with a mind flayer avatar

[the_tick_rules]

thanks Fascisticide, i do my best. there's also a feat in phb II that extends reach by 5 feet, you can only attack one a round though if you use it.

[Umarth]

If you’re the DM in a Munchkin game then I'd rule:

1) She can't make sneak attacks on anything bigger than small.
2) Reach weapons don't help.
3) She needs to make str checks if the wind is stronger than 15 miles per hour. I'd also always make the wind stronger than 15 miles per hour.
4) Grapple a lot. Everything should grapple them.

If you’re the player then:
1) Cheat. Just sneak attack all the time (and I mean all the time even against undead and such). If the stupid DM catches you just say oops.
2) Bribe the DM.
3) Use ride checks to "mount" your opponents as a free action to attack them. Since you only have to be adjacent for this should allow you to move into the opponents square for free. Also if the DM complains note that the normal circumstance modifier for "adverse" conditions is -2 (which doesn't raise the DC much).

[de-trick]

is she a pixie or some thing like that