Fiendish Blood

[Human Paragon 3]

Hi guys. One of my players is working on a characater for a new campaign. He is also new to the 3.5 system (he is a 2e holdout). He wants to play a character with demon blood who quests to become a full demon and attain his birthright power.

I see a few ways to accomplish this, but I am interested in opinions in how to go about it.

1) I could make him a tiefling. This seems like the most straightforward way to go about this, and it has a level adjust of only +1.

2) I could slap the Fiendish template onto him. This is a little stronger than the tiefling race and would allow him to gain the benefits of his normal race (probably a form of elf). The LA is +2, however.

3) I could apply the Half Fiend template. This has the benefit of giving him claw attacks, bat wings, and a bevvy of powerful spell-like abillities, but a wopping LA of +4. Since we are starting at level 2, this seems right out unless I make up a monster class, something I've never done before.

4) The bloodline rules from the Unearthed Arcana. It gets around level adjustment (sort of, you still have to take levels in the bloodline...) and lets you choose how major the bloodline is, but it is a bit sloppy.

It is a gestalt campaign, so the LA won't hurt too bad. He is probably going to be a Sorcerer/Rogue or Warlock/Rogue and he can just pitch the rogue levels to the LA, but we are starting at level 2.

Any bright ideas?

[Attilargh]

There is the prestige class "Fiend-Blooded" in Heroes of Horror, which transforms the character slowly to a fiend.

[Citizen Joe]

Just make him a normal character and give him a flaw: Delusional (thinks he's half demon). Then let him figure out how to become more demonic.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think he would rather play a character that really is half demon. Is delusional even really a flaw? It's not on the SRD.

[hewhosaysfish]

Have you seen the template classes on the WotC site?

[RocketBard]

I think that making him a Tiefling would be the best course of action.

[Human Paragon 3]

Have you seen the template classes on the WotC site?

I hadn't seen that, but something similar is on the SRD, the Fiendish Template. This is a little bit more specific about how to add it to a PC, so it should be helpful if I go that route.


For the Tiefling, do you think it would be fair to change the abillity adjustment (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) to +2 Dex, +2 Cha? The good planetouched has no minuses to his abillities, it seems unfair that the Tiefling should. Dex isn't THAT much better than Wisdom.

[Danin]

If he already has fiend blood then the "Fiend Blooded" class in Heros of Horror is just what he is looking for. Makes you more powerfull as a sorcerer and slowly transforms you into a fiend, giving you all the benifits that go along with it. I think you have to be evil though, but seeing as how he wants to become one I doubt thats a problem.

[Human Paragon 3]

If he already has fiend blood then the "Fiend Blooded" class in Heros of Horror is just what he is looking for. Makes you more powerfull as a sorcerer and slowly transforms you into a fiend, giving you all the benifits that go along with it. I think you have to be evil though, but seeing as how he wants to become one I doubt thats a problem.

I'll check out HoH when I get home. Sounds promising.

[hewhosaysfish]

I hadn't seen that, but something similar is on the SRD, the Fiendish Template. This is a little bit more specific about how to add it to a PC, so it should be helpful if I go that route.

Yes, the Fiendish and Half-Fiendish template classes are exactly the same (more-or-less) as the Fiendish and Half-Fiendish templates except that they can be added level-by-level rather than in one big +2 or +4 lump. This makes both of them more viable at the lower levels.
Alternatively, start him as a Tiefling and use the Tiefling/Half-Fiend transition detailed in the same set of articles.

[SpiderBrigade]

My recommendation would be to go all-out with the Template Classes. Start him as the LA-0 Tiefling, let him take the Tiefling level, and then the three Half-Fiend transition class levels. That gives a nice gradual progression that he can follow at his own pace, while still starting him out with a palpable fiend-blooded nature.

Of course if he wants to be a caster this is a horrible idea, as would anything involving a class-level hit. But that's just the way it works unless you allow LA buyoff.

Edit: simued by the fish speaker.
Also, you mention that this will be a Gestalt game. You need to figure out in advance how you're going to handle the template classes, if you allow them. Can he take a regular class opposite the template class? Or does it fill both sides? Which approach to use is a common (and quite heated) debate on these boards.

[Draz74]

You could just houserule the bloodline to make it less sloppy.

Something like this:

When he selects the Fiendish Bloodline, he gains Darkvision 60 and Fiend Affinity +2. (Not enough to deserve a Level Adjustment by itself.)

When he accepts a +1 LA instead of going up a level, he gains Strength +2, Charisma +2, Fire and Acid resistance 5, natural claw/claw/bite attacks, darkness as an SLA 1/day, and a +2 racial bonus to Bluff checks.

When and if his LA increases to +2 instead of him going up a level, he gains Dexterity +2, Constitution +2, Save vs. poison +4, Smite Good 1/day, DR 5/magic, Fiend Affinity +4, Natural Armor +1, the Outsider Type, and Resist Fire 10.

When and if he allows his LA to increase to +3, he gains Strength +2, Intelligence +2, Charisma +2, immunity to poison, flight (double base speed, average maneuverability), Resist Fire 20, Resist Acid and Cold 10, Spell Resistance (Character Level +10), and his DR becomes 5/good.

Tweak as needed. I just pulled this out of some old homebrewed stuff of mine.

[Closet_Skeleton]

For the Tiefling, do you think it would be fair to change the abillity adjustment (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) to +2 Dex, +2 Cha? The good planetouched has no minuses to his abillities, it seems unfair that the Tiefling should. Dex isn't THAT much better than Wisdom.

Dex adds to more skills than wisdom. Both add to a save but dex adds to armour class and initiative as well. Dex is one of the strongest ability scores. Also, with Tieflings and Aasimars, it's the fact that Darkness is a stronger spell than Light. In 3.5 Aasimar get Daylight, but they didn't when their ability scores were designed and even now daylight has less combat application.

[Human Paragon 3]

My recommendation would be to go all-out with the Template Classes. Start him as the LA-0 Tiefling, let him take the Tiefling level, and then the three Half-Fiend transition class levels. That gives a nice gradual progression that he can follow at his own pace, while still starting him out with a palpable fiend-blooded nature.

Of course if he wants to be a caster this is a horrible idea, as would anything involving a class-level hit. But that's just the way it works unless you allow LA buyoff.

Edit: simued by the fish speaker.
Also, you mention that this will be a Gestalt game. You need to figure out in advance how you're going to handle the template classes, if you allow them. Can he take a regular class opposite the template class? Or does it fill both sides? Which approach to use is a common (and quite heated) debate on these boards.

The Transition class may be perfect for this. I'll see if he's willing to give up his Rogue levels for it. And yes, I am allowing players to take template/monster classes opposite the regular class. I think that it is in the spirit of the gestalt mechanics, and also just cool.

[Jack Mann]

Fiend-blooded coupled with the fiendish heritage feats from Complete Mage seem like fair bets to me.

[Draz74]

Dex adds to more skills than wisdom. Both add to a save but dex adds to armour class and initiative as well. Dex is one of the strongest ability scores.

I'm not arguing that Dex isn't better than Wis, but consider:
- Wis adds to a more important save than Dex
- Two of the four best skills in the game are Wis-based (Spot and Listen). None of the four best skills are Dex-based. (The other two, by general consensus, are UMD and Diplomacy.)