confused about attacks

[beachhead1973]

just like the title says.

i've looked over the rules in PHB a couple times and i still can't make sense of it.

full attack= how many attacks? (right now i give two for each weapon equipped at the same attack bonus, plus a 5-foot step if they want it)

double weapons=how many attacks for one action? (right now i give two (both ends) for one attack action at the same bonus)

i am working off 3rd edition books here, so perhaps it's covered more thoroughly in 3.5

[Yuki Akuma]

Um..

Full attack: +1 attack per every +5 BaB after +1 (note this is the base attack bonus, unmodified by your Strength, Dexterity or whatever), at -5 per extra attack. So, a character with a BaB of +6 gets two attacks: one at +6, and one at +6. Someone with a BaB of +11 gets a third attack, with one at +11, one at +6 and one at +1. Finally, as +16 BaB, you get a fourth; +16, +11, +6, +1.

If you're wielding two weapons, you get an extra off-hand attack, but take a huge penalty unless you have Two-Weapon Fighting.

Double weapons count as either a single two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon and a light weapon as if wielding one in each hand.

[Jayabalard]

That sounds pretty much totally wrong; likely one of the rules fanatics will have more specifics, but the # of attacks is based off of BAB, even at 20 BAB you only get 4 attacks, with each iterative attack at a lower attack bonus (20/15/10/5). Two weapon fighting gives one additional attack, and you take a penalty to all attacks if you twf

[silentknight]

Well, the number of attacks you can make is based on your Base Attack Bonus. If your BAB allows more than one attack, than you can make more than one attack in a full attack action. You can also make additional attacks with an off-hand weapon, but you take penalties to all attacks made if you do so. A double-weapon is a combo primary weapon and off-hand weapon.

In general, if you move more than 5 ft, you can only make one attack.

Whoa, simu-ninja attack FTW.

[Human Paragon 3]

Jayabalad is correct, except for monsters whose attack and full attack are in their description.

So, for example, let's say you are a Fightere level 15. Your BAB is +15/+10. If you make a standard attack action, you attack at +15. If you take a full attack action, you get your entire BAB, so one attack at +15 and a second at +10.

If you have a second weapon and elect to make a full attack, you may take an additional attack with your offhand weapon, but with the penalties described in the TWF section of the PHB. Note that certain feats (such as Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting) lessen this penalty or add additional attacks per round.

Hope that helps.

(Simu-Simu post)

[silentknight]

I hope we are helping, because there are some minor errors in the "advice" above.

Yuki's first example should have been +6 and +1.

Gaurd's example should be +15, +10, and +5.

[beachhead1973]

so somebody with less than +6, would not get anything out of a full attack?

and two weapon fighting gives you your second attack NORMALLY without full attack?

and with a double weapon you can only make 1 attack without full attack?

and normal 2-handed weapon never come into this? (ie, not slower or anything?)


PS: the examples are great

just to walk you guys on to the target here;

of the 2 PCs we have, the one for whom this applies is;

jon; a level4 fighter with a BAB of +4, 2-weapon fighting and weapon focus on bastard sword and short sword. he is proficient in both and both are master work, giving him an attack of +7 with each

[Penguinsushi]

so somebody with less than +6, would not get anything out of a full attack?

and two weapon fighting gives you your second attack NORMALLY without full attack?

and with a double weapon you can only make 1 attack without full attack?


PS: the examples are great

Not to sound like i jerk (because that's truly not my intent) - but do you own a copy of the PHB? If so - I'd suggest re-reading some sections. Specifically, the combat section. I answers all of your questions (basics pg135, full attack pg143, two-weapon fighting pg160).

As some have mentioned already, the number of attacks per round (using the full attack action) is based on BAB. The character class level tables show you how many attacks each gets at what level.

You are correct, someone with a BAB less than +6 only gets one attack even on a full attack action.

If this seems "underpowered" to you, you should keep in mind as it states in the rules that each 'attack' does not mean a single swing of the sword - rather, it is the probability of a solid hit during a given round. More experienced characters will hit more often, thus have 'more attacks'.

The two-weapon fighting section tells you that you only get the off-hand attacks when taking the full attack action. Fighting with both ends of a double weapon counts as two-weapon fighting, and thus operate by the same rules (in this regard).

~PS

[Jack Mann]

For the most part, no, they don't get any benefit, unless they have some other way of getting extra attacks, such as flurry of blows or two-weapon fighting.

You still have to make a full attack to use your second weapon. You need a special ability to be able to, say, move and hit with both. So two-weapon fighters get a benefit from the full-attack option, as do monks.

You can get more attacks with your off-hand weapon, but they require taking the improved and greater two-weapon fighting feats. Generally, these become available after you gain another attack with your primary weapon.

Also keep in mind that natural weapons never get iterative attacks, no matter how high your BAB goes up.

[Dizlag]

To reply to your example:

Jon, a 4th level fighter with a BAB +4 and wielding a bastard sword and short short, each with a +7 attack could do the following in a round:

Take a standard action to attack with the bastard sword at +7 attack
OR take a standard action to attack with the short sword at +7 attack
OR take a full-round action to attack with both the bastard sword and short sword each at a +5 attack (-2 to both attacks because fighting with two weapons, two-weapon fighting feat, and using a light weapon in the off-hand)

One more thing, if you're using a weapon in your off-hand, you only apply half your Strength bonus to damage.

And here's Two Weapon Fighting on the SRD.

Dizlag

EDIT: added the TWF link and 1/2 Strength

[beachhead1973]

ah! thankyou! this is very helpful.

now what if, say we have guy with some kind of large 2-handed weapon, it doesn't matter what and spiked guantlets?

could he benefit from full attack?

swing with the 2-hander then lash out with one of the gauntlets?

[Person_Man]

OK, so this is complex, but in a real game its pretty straightforward.

Standard Action: One Attack, unless you have some sort of special ability (Whirling Frenzy) or feat (Snap-Kick). You generally use this if you need to take a Move action and then attack (or attack and then Move).

Full Attack: Based on your BAB, plus any bonus attacks that you might get from other sources, such as Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry, Speed effects, etc. Generally, you should just ask a more experienced player how many attacks you get, write down the modifiers for your full attack routine, and then refer to it whenever you need to make a full attack.

Charge: Up to double your movement speed in a strait line through non-difficult terrain directly towards your enemy, followed by one attack at the end of your movement. This is a full round action. A Charge can be modified in a bunch of different ways (for example, there are thirty something different ways to get a more then one attack at the end of a charge, several ways to multiply the damage, etc), and is generally the best source of melee damage in D&D.

Natural Attacks: Players usually don't have to deal with this. But if you have natural attacks, like a bite, claws, tentacles, etc., you can sometimes use these attacks instead of or in addition to your normal attack routine. Don't bother with this if you're new to the game.

[Dizlag]

Wielding a two-handed weapon with spiked gauntlets wouldn't benefit a fighter with less than +6 BAB. Now, a fighter with +6 BAB or more would have at least two attacks. The first attack could be made with the two-handed weapon at +6 BAB and the second attack a punch from the spiked gauntlet (considered an armed attack) made at +1 BAB.

Again, without a second attack ... someone wielding a two-handed weapon would have to choose to swing the weapon or punch with their spiked gauntlet.

Dizlag

EDIT: little clearer now

[beachhead1973]

great, but now back to 2-weapons

once this guy get above BAB+6 (if he lives that long, i swear to the dark gods)

he'll get 2 attacks normally (6/1) and 3 with full attack?

or am i still thinking single-weapon here?

[Quietus]

great, but now back to 2-weapons

once this guy get above BAB+6 (if he lives that long, i swear to the dark gods)

he'll get 2 attacks normally (6/1) and 3 with full attack?

or am i still thinking single-weapon here?

Correct. The BAB numbers are for your primary weapon, so at BAB +6, he has one attack at +6 (before strength, masterwork, ect), and a second at +1 (same deal). Due to his two-weapon fighting feat, he'll ALSO get a single attack with his off-hand weapon at +6 (same, blah blah blah). He'll take a -2 penalty to ALL attacks made in the round for fighting with two weapons. This is all assuming he makes a full attack, anything less than that only gives a single attack.

If he picks up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 6, he'll also get a second attack with his off-hand weapon at +1 (Ditto, same, blah blah blah).

[Matthew]

A Character with a Two Handed Weapon could, however, make a Two Handed Attack and an Off Hand Attack with Armour Spikes (or perhaps an Unarmed Strike, such as a Head Butt or Kick) - as could a Two Weapon Fighter or a Weapon and Shield Fighter.

[beachhead1973]

when you're doing it right, that off-hand weapon doesn't get used alot, eh?

[Dizlag]

Jon is now a 6th level Fighter with +6 BAB. His options are now:

Standard action single attack with bastard sword at +9 attack
OR a standard action single attack with short sword at +9 attack
OR a full-round action full attack with bastard sword at +9/+4 attack
OR a full-round action full attack with short sword at +9/+4 attack
OR a full-round action full attack with bastard sword +7/+2 and short sword at +7 attack

If Jon, picked up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 6th level, then his last option above would change to this:

OR a full-round action full attack with bastard sword +7/+2 and short sword at +7/+2 attack

Dizlag

EDIT: simul-ninja'd!

[Quietus]

when you're doing it right, that off-hand weapon doesn't get used alot, eh?

Depends on the build, really, but two-weapon fighting is generally seen as .. suboptimal.

[beachhead1973]

Depends on the build, really, but two-weapon fighting is generally seen as .. suboptimal.

why is that? it would seem to be an advantage when facing low-AC enemies

[Matthew]

Power Attack and Cleave, mainly. It can be an advantage, but usually not. Getting a Full Attack is difficult to do. That's why many DMs House Rule it so that an On Hand and Off Hand Attack can be made as a Standard Action. I use a Home Brew Feat called Mobile Two Weapon Fighting, which helps, but doesn't do enough by itself.

[Glyphic]

Two weapon fighting can get some good use out of Shocking weapons, Keen weapons with decent critical ranges, Sneak attack, flaming swords..

Anything that adds extra damage DICE to two weapon fighting can be a huge boon. Sneak attack in particular, as you want to get into flanking positions to pick up that nice +2 bonus. And then, you sneak attack with 3 or 4 attacks!