Improved trip, broken? help me persuade my DM it's not

[Elhann]

Hi there (first post)!

I've been asked to build a level 6 character to complete a group as one of the players left (Forgotten Realms: currently, halfling rogue, gnome Cleric of Garl Glittergold and archer fighter, the one who left was playing an aasimar paladin of Tyr who died fighting some red wizards). Since the last character I played was an illusionist and playing instead of the "tank", I decided to go for a "bounty hunter", like this: (core only, perhaps complete warrior is allowed: my PC is supposed to be hired by the group to help them find the red wizards that attacked them)

(stat generation, 4d6 drop lowest)
STR 17-->18 INT 13
CON 18 WIS 14
DEX 16 CHA 10 (yeah, I got quite lucky. )

CG Human fighter 4/ ranger 2 of Mielikki

Feats:
Weapon focus: heavy flail
Weap. specialization: Heavy Flail
Combat Expertise
Power attack
Improved initiative
Combat reflexes
Improved trip
Rapid shot (which I get from Ranger combat style: archery)

Equipment:
Mithral chainmail +1 (counts as light armour and I can use my ranger abilities, don't I?)
Cold iron "heavy flail" +1
Masterwork composite shortbow (+2)
20 normal arrows
20 silver arrows
Ring of protection +1 (considering to change this for a cloak of resistance +1)
Mundane equipment, tanglefoot bags and potions of CLW to round to WBL.

The thing is, I'm not trying to optimize anything (actually, my heavy flail is a maul, using the stats for the heavy flail without the bonus to disarm attempts, or the ability to use it to trip opponents. Think of a bastard sword with blunt damage instead of slashing that cannot be wielded one-handed) but my DM said that improved trip was horribly broken, that no one in his mind would stop using it in melee if they had it and that it would slow the game and ruin it, so it was "banned".

I don't see how it is broken. Not wanting to argue, I decided to swap it for improved disarm -which is essentially the same, but instead of getting a free atack by tripping, I'll get it from combat reflexes if the opponent attacks me unarmed, or if they try to pick their weapon from the floor (right?) - which got his blessing. I just want to be able to do something in combat besides whacking heads, and I rolled a nice 13 for INT, so...

AFAIK, with my "maul" I would have to make an unarmed attack (for example, kicking them, style) to trip my opponent, risking to be tripped myself, and then, if I succeeded, I could keep attacking with my maul. Is this right? Would I get just one maul attack, or could I make a full attack action (using the "kick" as my first attack, using my maul as my free atack from improved trip, and the the rest of my attack progression? Now I write all this, it would be just easier if I used an actual heavy flail, but...

So, assuming I'm not horribly confused with the rules and my explanation makes some sense, can you help me to persuade my DM and give me some arguments about how "improved trip" is not broken?

Thank you!

[Human Paragon 3]

First, you are right about the full attack, you would get to trip and then follow up with your full attack if you took the f.a. option.

Second, the fact that the enemy gets a chance to trip you back is an obvious dissadvantage, not to mention any four-legged, larger (or larger) creature or very high strength or deck creature will own you in your trip attempts.

Third, many monsters will have qualities that will completely ruin your trip attempts such as flight or an amorphous nature.

It is a very good feat, but I wouldn't call it broken at all. Non spellcasters are alread at a dissadvantage, so you are entitled to your combat tricks!

[Kalirren]

EDIT: 0: Because you are tripping unarmed and you don't have improved unarmed strike, when you make your melee touch attack you are -provoking- an attack of opportunity. It doesn't matter if you have improved trip, because it's not the tripping action that provokes the attack; it's the fact that you're using an unarmed strike.



1. Improved trip actually isn't all that useful against any monster bigger than you are (high str. score, size bonus, etc.) It also doesn't help you any against flyers or during ranged combat.

2. Many monsters can take that -4 from being prone and hit you anyway. These generally fall into the same category as the large monsters in 1., however.

3. Your weapon is still vulnerable to disarming or sundering, and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike to deal with it.

4. Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise, which while useful, is not a particularly strong feat. Those two feats could have been spent on more direct damage to great effect.

5. If you have 5 ranks in balance, then an item from the Magic Item Compendium which costs some 700 gp (some pair of boots) lets you get up from prone as a free action without an attack of opportunity, essentially negating much of the benefit of Improved Trip.

Moving into houseruling solutions:

6. You could persuade him to generalize the feat Close Quarters Fighting (CW 97) beyond grapples and include bull rushes, trips.

7. To be fair, Improved Trip is still strong in person-versus-person combat. This is mainly due to the opposed ability check mechanic in contrast to opposed attack rolls (specifically in that no BAB modifier considered.), which makes the +4 that much stronger. Replace the ability check with opposed attack rolls (except for defender can use either str. or dex., you don't get your weapon enhancement bonus, yadda yadda) and it might be more balanced.

[ZeroNumerous]

Actually, a Large creature versus a medium with Improved Trip and an equal amount of strength is more luck than anything else. Being large gives you a +4 bonus to trip, while Improved Trip also gives you a +4 bonus.

Either way, you are better off using a heavy flail, because attempting your unarmed melee touch attack without improved unarmed strike will provoke an AoO.

[Person_Man]

Improved Trip works very poorly against sufficiently big/strong enemies, flying enemies, enemies without legs, Incorporeal enemies, and anyone with the right feats or special abilities. Its a very good tactic, but even Precision damage works against more enemies then Improved Trip, especially at higher levels.

Plus you haven't even taken Knock-Down yet, which is even better, and works very well defensively when used with reach weapons. So I'm not sure why your DM cares, unless all he does is throw generic orcs against you all day.

[Yechezkiel]

4. Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise, which while useful, is not a particularly strong feat. Those two feats could have been spent on more direct damage to great effect.

If Improved Combat Expertise is allowed, the Combat Expertise route is very useful later on in life (lvl?).

[Ashes]

You're a melee combatant. You cannot do anything overpowered.

[Stam]

Benefit:
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Normal:
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Emphasis mine.

[Fixer]

Third, many monsters will have qualities that will completely ruin your trip attempts such as flight or an amorphous nature.

There is no rule that you cannot trip a flying creature. In fact, you can probably do falling damage to a flying creature by tripping it in mid-air (effectively wing-binding it for a round). Now, if the creature uses magical flight, tripping becomes weird (it goes off balance for the round and must reorient itself, provoking an attack of opportunity just like getting up) but still possible.

These, of course, use RAW and common sense has little to do with it.

[Skjaldbakka]

hmm, trip doesn't say anything about forcing the target to move. A flying creature is by definition not on the ground. Prone states that the creature is on the ground.

I have always ruled that you cannot trip a flying target for these reasons.

however, RAW does not support either side of this, which leaves it open to interpretaion.

Another point in favor of Improved Trip is that you aren't a Spiked Chain fighter, and you can't trip anything more than one size category larger than you.

[Glenn Jr]

Hello!

Just wanted to recommend these articles about tripping. They're from WotC's website, and mention tripping flying creatures too.

All About Trip Attacks (Part One)

All About Trip Attacks (Part Two)

Cheers!

[Seffbasilisk]

Tripping isn't a guarentee, besides there are skill tricks that let you get up an an immediate action or without AoO, etc.


Tripping's not too strong, I was going to build a build around ranged tripping, but ended up dropping it in favor of just versatility.

[Stephen_E]

hmm, trip doesn't say anything about forcing the target to move. A flying creature is by definition not on the ground. Prone states that the creature is on the ground.

I have always ruled that you cannot trip a flying target for these reasons.

however, RAW does not support either side of this, which leaves it open to interpretaion.

Actually Trip does force the target to move. Going to or from prone requires a move action. Since Trip forces the target to go prone it forces them to take a "move action" by the DnD definition.

As for tripping a flyer. In many ways so long as the flyer is within reach and using wings to fly, it would actually be easier to trip them in reality. Tangle a wing and they stop flying. Stop flying and you'll be prone very fast.

Stephen

[Glyphic]

If you look at part two of the links above, you find this..

Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Umm... sorry, Improved Trip *IS* broken.

Spiked Chain +Improved Trip+ Combat Reflexes.

Mook: I charge your buddy
Fighter: You got within 10' of me, AoO, which I use to trip you and get a free attack
Mook: Curses, okay, I get back up and...
Fighter: Provoke ANOTHER Attack of Opportunity. Fall over again and this time take a full round of attacks instead of just one

This gets even MORE broken with Expansion. Anyone within 20' of you falls over and dies. Almost no way out of it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Actually, you can't trip someone on the AoO they take from standing up, since they're still prone when the AoO occurs. That actually helps a lot. It's in the FAQ, I believe.

Anyway, Improved Trip is a great tactic against medium two-legged creatures you can get within your reach. Against good ranged attackers, Huge or larger monsters, Large or large quadrupedal monsters, etc., it's basically useless.

Plus, arcane casters can basically do the same thing only better (just like everything a Fighter can do). Black Tentacles. Your DM thinks he'll have an annoying time rolling opposed trip rolls against one target per round? Wait till someone grapples everyone in a 20' radius. And grapple is way more annoying to adjudicate than trip. Hell, arcanists get Grease at first level, another 20' radius spell that basically trips everyone in the area, albeit with a simpler check. Still, way more powerful than trip.

[Callix]

That's spiked chains that are broken, not Improved Trip. Let the poor clever fighter have his trip attacks, but don't give him a reach weapon that works against close opponents. Oh, and any monk worth their salt has enough ranks in Tumble to completely negate that combo. If you want to get technical, try a Leap Attack, or a Large monk that can hit from 10ft away. With an ordinary melee weapon, especially without the flail's +2, a trip is in no way broken. You don't even need a feat. Just equip a flail/ranseur/guisarme and take the +2. This is also nothing on casters who just Dominate/Hold you from range.

[Jack Mann]

Doesn't work, Shneekey. You can't trip someone when they get back up. They're prone until they finish the action, and you can't trip someone who's prone. You just get an extra attack.

And there are plenty of ways the enemy can get out of it. It can win the strength or dexterity check. It can be large enough that it gets bonuses on it. It might have a high touch AC. If you're not expanded, it can simply take a five foot step once it's up and not provoke an attack of opportunity. It can use a reach weapon and hit you without moving out of any square you threaten.

Tripping is a good option, and it's the only thing fighters really do better than anyone else. But it's hardly broken.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, you can't trip someone on the AoO they take from standing up, since they're still prone when the AoO occurs. That actually helps a lot. It's in the FAQ, I believe.

Anyway, Improved Trip is a great tactic against medium two-legged creatures you can get within your reach. Against good ranged attackers, Huge or larger monsters, Large or large quadrupedal monsters, etc., it's basically useless.

Plus, arcane casters can basically do the same thing only better (just like everything a Fighter can do). Black Tentacles. Your DM thinks he'll have an annoying time rolling opposed trip rolls against one target per round? Wait till someone grapples everyone in a 20' radius. And grapple is way more annoying to adjudicate than trip. Hell, arcanists get Grease at first level, another 20' radius spell that basically trips everyone in the area, albeit with a simpler check. Still, way more powerful than trip.

With Enlarge Person or Expansion, you ARE tripping everyone in 20'. And not only does Spiked Chain get a bonus to trip, but you get another bonus from Improved Trip, plus since you're large or huge yourself, you get all those bonuses, plus your strength modifier, and any other bonuses you might be able to tack on. I've made a spiked chain tripper build that can reliabally trip the Tauresque every turn.

[Glyphic]

Actually, you can't trip someone on the AoO they take from standing up, since they're still prone when the AoO occurs. That actually helps a lot. It's in the FAQ, I believe.

What happens is, when you trip someone with improved trip, you get a free melee attack against them, as if you hadn't used that attack to trip them. Once you have two attacks around, you can ready your second attack, as a trip, for when they stand up. It may be at a +1 or whatever, but since you need to make a touch attack, and then a strength check, it doesn't much matter.

And yeah, it's a great way for fighting simple humanoids.

[Jack Mann]

What happens is, when you trip someone with improved trip, you get a free melee attack against them, as if you hadn't used that attack to trip them. Once you have two attacks around, you can ready your second attack, as a trip, for when they stand up. It may be at a +1 or whatever, but since you need to make a touch attack, and then a strength check, it doesn't much matter.

And yeah, it's a great way for fighting simple humanoids.

You need a standard action to ready an action. You don't have a standard action at this point. Either it's not your turn yet (it was an attack of opportunity) or you used your standard action for the first attack. Nor could you ready the action anyway. The feat specifies an immediate attack against that opponent. That's all it grants you. Nothing about the feat would imply you could save it up to use on them later, or to use on another enemy.

[JellyPooga]

I would have to agree with everyone here who says that Imp. Trip isn't broken...it's simply not. In fact, it's probably one of the more balanced abilities available to d&d characters (a feat + minimum ability score to aquire, limited usage but good effect). In comparison to full-spellcasting it's a bit naff (when I say "a bit"...).

Having said that, it does become VERY dull when it's the only ability you ever use. O.K. so the d&d system isn't particularly flexible in the way of varied combat, but when you're a one-trick pony and all you ever do is that one trick, it doesn't make for a)good cinematic fights or b)a good game.

My advice, if you can persuade your DM that it's not broken, is to use it judiciously (spelling?). As with most things in d&d, it's only 'broken' if you break it. Only trip people when it seems appropriate, rather than all the time (e.g. in a fight where you are trying to humiliate your opponent, you would be constantly tripping him up, but not actually trying to do a great deal of damage, but in a fight where you are trying to kill a big-bad-monster quickly, before it devours the wizard, you might bull rush it instead to a)distract it and b) move it away from said wizard, because although you are good at tripping, said big-bad-monster wouldn't actually be any further away from the wizard and might have equal combative abilities when prone as it does when upright).

You've already not broken Imp. Trip by not using a Spiked Chain (which is the only real way that you can break it). Now all you have to do is make sure that you don't accidentally break it by over-using it.

[Fixer]

It has already been said by some but I will repeat in simpler terms and break it down for those who still disagree:

A Tripping Expert
Level 4 Human Fighter (Enlarged Somehow)
Strength 19(21), Dex 18(16)
Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm
+1 Spiked Chain
Armor: 18 (Masterwork Breastplate (+5 to armor, +4 Maximum Dex))
Attack Bonus: +1 Spiked Chain (+10 melee)
Damage: 2d4+8

We will put two against one another. The first guy we call Winner and the second we call Loser.

{table]Round|Attacker|Defender|Result
1a|Improved Trip Attempt (Average Touch Attack Roll: 19) Strength Check (Average Strength Roll: 25)|(Average Opposed Strength Roll: 19)|Ok, Loser is probably down! 75% chance.
1b|FREE ATTACK! (Average Disarm Attempt: 23)|Opposed (Average Disarm Attempt: 21)|60% chance of Loser being disarmed. Probably Disarmed.
(Note: No damage dealt to Loser yet.)
Now, here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will fight for damage from the ground after being disarmed:
1c|Pick Up Weapon|Attack of Opportunity Provoked: Average Roll: 21 vs. 14|85% chance Loser hit for 2d4+8
1d|Attack while prone (Average Attack Roll: 17 vs 14)|Sits there and takes it|60% chance Winner hit for 2d4+8Now, here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will fight for damage from the ground after NOT being disarmed:
1c|Attack while prone (Average Attack Roll: 17 vs 14)|Sits there and takes it|60% chance Winner hit for 2d4+8
Now, here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will fight for tripping from the ground after being disarmed:
1c|Pick Up Weapon|Attack of Opportunity Provoked: Average Roll: 21 vs. 14|85% chance Loser hit for 2d4+8
1d|Improved Trip Attempt (Average Touch Attack Roll: 19) Strength Check (Average Strength Roll: 25)|(Average Opposed Strength Roll: 19)|Ok, Loser is probably down! 75% chance.
1e|FREE ATTACK! Attack while prone (Average Attack Roll: 17 vs 10)|Sits there and takes it|80% chance Winner hit for 2d4+8
Now, here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will fight for tripping from the ground after NOT being disarmed:
1c|Attack while prone (Average Attack Roll: 17 vs 14)|Sits there and takes it|60% chance Winner hit for 2d4+8
Here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will try to stand up after being disarmed:
1c|Stand Up|Attack of Opportunity Provoked: Average Roll: 21 vs. 14|85% chance Loser hit for 2d4+8 (NOTE: If Winner was to try to attempt to Trip here they would be tripping a prone opponent, thereby accomplishing nothing. You cannot trip a prone opponent and the trip attempt does not prevent the action of standing up.)
1d|Retrieve Weapon|Attack of Opportunity Provoked: Trip Attempt (Average Touch Attack Roll: 19) Strength Check (Average Strength Roll: 25)|(Average Opposed Strength Roll: 19)|Ok, Loser is probably down again! 75% chance.
1e|FREE ATTACK! (Average Disarm Attempt: 23)|Opposed (Average Disarm Attempt: 21)|60% chance of Loser being disarmed. Probably Disarmed.
Here we are going to assume the 'Loser' will try to stand up after NOT being disarmed:
1c|Stand Up|Attack of Opportunity Provoked: Average Roll: 21 vs. 14|85% chance Loser hit for 2d4+8 (NOTE: If Winner was to try to attempt to Trip here they would be tripping a prone opponent, thereby accomplishing nothing. See Above.)
1d|Improved Trip Attempt (Average Touch Attack Roll: 19) Strength Check (Average Strength Roll: 25)|(Average Opposed Strength Roll: 19)|Ok, Winner is probably down! 75% chance.
1e|FREE ATTACK! (Average Disarm Attempt: 23)|Opposed (Average Disarm Attempt: 21)|60% chance of Winner being disarmed. Probably Disarmed.
Here we are going to assume the 'Loser' never got tripped in the first place:
1c|Improved Trip Attempt (Average Touch Attack Roll: 19) Strength Check (Average Strength Roll: 25)|(Average Opposed Strength Roll: 19)|Ok, Winner is probably down! 75% chance.
1b|FREE ATTACK! (Average Disarm Attempt: 23)|Opposed (Average Disarm Attempt: 21)|60% chance of Winner being disarmed. Probably Disarmed.[/table]
Net Probability Results after one round:

Winner:
Ok, you hopefully get the idea. I was working on the probabilities and such of each but just in this one round it was getting ridiculous.
I have, however, discovered a few things about 'being prone'

1. Being prone only means you suffer a -4 to melee attacks, no ranged attacks (except crossbows and shuriken), a +4 to AC vs ranged attacks and a -4 to AC vs melee attacks.
2. Being prone does NOT prevent you from moving at your normal speed while remaining prone, nor does it prevent you from attacking while prone NOR does it prevent you from tripping WHILE prone.

So, no, the Super Tripping Fighter isn't all that. It is just another nice trick.

[Stephen_E]

A few corrections regarding Spiked Chains and Tripping.
Some have already been made, but I figure I try to put them all toghther since some people obviously has the major miconceptions about how they work (look at Ginat when he id the Spked Chain in OoTS).

You can't trip a person standing up. The AoO you get from them standing is taken when they're still prone, so they can't be tripped. All you get is a normal AoO with a +4 for them been prone when you hit.

Readying an action is a standard action, therefore you can't use multiple attacks to hit them once, and then save the other attack as a readied action.

Spiked Chain doesn't give a bonus to trip. There is an Exotic Weaponmaster ability that gives Exotic Weapons a +2 to Trip.

Tripping is an opposed Str, or Str vs Dex for the Defender, with +/-4 mod for every size category larger/smaller than "M" and +4 for the defnder if the have 4+ legs, or are particly stable. Been a Str check means you roll a d20 and add the mods. If you fail they get to make a trip attempt back for free, and if they win you're tripped, or if it's one of the specalist Trip weapons you can drop your weapon. In other words if you do much tripping it is a mathimatical certainty that you will with reasonable regularity trip yourself, or disarm yourself, even discounting that monsters tend to be larger, have more legs, and be as strong or stronger.

In the case of the person charging the Trip Fighter with a Spiked Chain, assuming the attacker isn't tumbling, they attract an AoO when they try to move from 1 square away (10') to adjacent (5'). On been tripped they drop prone 1 square away (although I know some who debate this). In your turn you can make your full attack on the prone attacker. In their turn they standup, taking an AoO, they then step forward 5', which doesn't attract an AoO, and attack you with a Standard attack. Keep in mind it is also possible to make a DC35 Tumble to stand as a free action, still attracting an AoO, but then been able to 5' step and full attack.

If you have Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, you need high Str, high Dex, 13+ Int, and mid to high Con (any melee combatant without decent Con just dies). Can we say MAD.

If you don't take Knock Down (allows you a trip attempt if you do 10?+ pts of damage) then you're substituting your normal attack for a touch attack which does no damage unless you then win a opposed Str check, and then hit with a standard melee attack with a +4 to hit. And if you fail that opposed str check, you then have to make another opposed Str chack to avoid been tripped or disarmed [B]as part of your own attack.[B] Wow, is that broken.... NOT.

The big thing about Spiked Chain Trip builds is that you can do combat tactics other than trip.

edit: 1) When prone you can only move 5' as a full action which attracts an AoO. You can also tumble at full speed (DC 25) to avoid the AoO.

2) If you Disarm someone they can draw another weapon and avoid an AoO. If they are making another move action they can draw a weapon as a free action.

Stephen

[Human Paragon 3]

There is a feat in the net book of feats that allows a rogue to make a sneak attack vs. any prone opponent (much like a flanked opponent). My question now, is do you guys consider THAT broken, or just another nice trick? I'd be inclined to let the feat into my campaign, but I'm interested in opinions.

[BardicDuelist]

I would like to point out that not just a monk, but a bard, rogue, scout, etc with ranks in tumble can negate the spike chain thing.

[Fixer]

A few corrections regarding Spiked Chains and Tripping.
edit: 1) When prone you can only move 5' as a full action which attracts an AoO. You can also tumble at full speed (DC 25) to avoid the AoO.

This part. Where is this? I thought I remembered it from somewhere but couldn't find it in the SRD.

[Attilargh]

This part. Where is this? I thought I remembered it from somewhere but couldn't find it in the SRD.

This was the closest I could find, from Actions in Combat:

Crawling

You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Being prone does NOT prevent you from moving at your normal speed while remaining prone...

Uh, you might want to look at the rules for crawling

There are a couple of relevant FAQ entries, too:

Can prone characters move? The rules on crawling would obviously apply here, but this question also includes things like limbless creatures and oozes.

If a creature has no motive limbs, you move at your normal speed when prone, otherwise you must crawl.

Can a character use the Tumble skill from a prone position? Specifically, if my character is prone, can he use Tumble to move out of a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity?

According to a strict reading of the rules, no. The key phrase in the Tumble skill description is this: “Tumble at one- half speed as part of normal movement. . . .” You can’t move “normally” while prone, thus you can’t use Tumble in this manner while prone.

The only “normal” movement allowed while prone is to crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. I don’t think it stretches the rules unreasonably to allow a character to use Tumble while crawling, but since you can’t crawl at half speed (half of 5 feet is less than a full square), you’d have to take the –10 penalty on the Tumble check for using accelerated tumbling. Thus, a character could make a “crawling Tumble”—think of it as an “action roll” if you prefer—to move 5 feet as a move action without provoking attacks of opportunity; such an action would require a DC 15 Tumble check with a –10 penalty.

[Citizen Joe]

How about this... ready action to sunder the weapon of anyone attacking you... then walk up drawing an AoO.