Str rules supreme

[weenie]

I think that the role of strength is way to significant in the d20 system. The fact that you get to add it to both, melee attack bonus and damage seems a bit strange. The barbarian's rage is a good example. It's perfectly understandable, that a person should be able to swing a weapon really hard when they're extremeley angry, but that the weapon's chance of hitting should increase is unrational. In my opinion dex bonus, and dex bonus only should be added to all melee and ranged attack rolls(well, and BaB and other bonuses..). I know this may overpower dex-relaying characters, but if you think about it, it really makes sense. A giant's swing is sureley going to sqush you like an ant if it hits you, but giants are not that quick by nature and there's a good chance you'll avoid the blow. The variant armor rules in unearthed arcana could be applied too, so that part of the armor bonus would convert into damage reduction. That would balance the new str/dex usage a bit and would make a fight appear much more realistic.

So, what do you think? Would it work? Has it ever been tried out?

[Matthew]

No, it doesn't make more sense. It does make about the same sort of sense (i.e. not much). Dexterity already has more than enough uses, but if you need an explanation, Strength is required for Speed (and also to smash through armour that cannot be bypassed). I usually fall on the other side of the fence, though, I think Strength should be used for Ranged Attacks as well as Melee.

[Indon]

Well, strength may add to melee attack and damage rolls, but...

Dexterity adds to Armor Class, Ranged attack rolls, and Reflex saves;

Constitution adds to Health and Fortitude saves;

Casting stats add to both spell counts and spell save DC's.

[Skjaldbakka]

Reminds me of old world of darkness, where you would roll dex+weaponry to hit, then strength + extra successes for damage. I don't think it would work very well in D&D, because it really hurts heavy armor wearers, and knights in armor are kind of an iconic figure in D&D.

And have you ever tried to swing a sword? Strength is definitely a factor there, unless the weapon is light.

Of course I'm mostly comparing my experience fighting in the SCA (fighting in plate armor with ritan weapons), to fighting in NERO (fighting in heavy armor with pvc pipe wrapped in foam).

[Closet_Skeleton]

The problems;

Armour based characters lose out on accuracy because wearing armour makes their dex useless.

Dex already adds to loads of skills, initiative, reflex saves and armour class.

A lot of large monsters will lose the ability to hit anything.

Some solutions;

Let monsters use strength for natural weapons. Since the weapons are part of the monster you can rationalise things.

Change initiative to intelligence or wisdom. This would make some sense and would stop dex becoming the ultimate stat.

Make sure that characters don't need heavy armour to get anywhere or give your armoured characters better equipment.

[Piccamo]

No, it doesn't make more sense. It does make about the same sort of sense (i.e. not much). Dexterity already has more than enough uses, but if you need an explanation, Strength is required for Speed (and also to smash through armour that cannot be bypassed). I usually fall on the other side of the fence, though, I think Strength should be used for Ranged Attacks as well as Melee.

I can understand dexterity being used for melee attacks, but I do not see how strength would add to ranged attack bonus.

In any case, I feel for class balance every character should have to rely on 3 or more attributes to be effective. Everyone already has Con (so they don't have a tasty dose of death).

[Jasdoif]

I usually fall on the other side of the fence, though, I think Strength should be used for Ranged Attacks as well as Melee.

Like, for thrown weapons?

[Indon]

I can understand dexterity being used for melee attacks, but I do not see how strength would add to ranged attack bonus.

For bows, it would be a more detailed version of the rule which penalizes attack with a composite bow if you lack the required strength; the easier it is to pull an arrow, the more steady you can hold it, the easier it is to fire reliably.

But still, dex makes more sense for ranged attack modifier.

[dukexx]

Or perhaps drawing a bowstring farther back.

Edit: both beaten and topped.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Strength makes sense when the assumption is that hitting is all about overcoming armour.

In an armour as DR game dexterity makes more sense, in the original edition of DnD strength made some sense and it has gone down from there.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The rationale in the d20 system is that Armor Class represents both the enemy's chance to miss and the chance that one's armor will deflect the blow. Strength adds to Attack because it represents the ability to penetrate armor. Also, in general, stronger people have more control when they're swinging a long or heavy weapon like a sword or axe.

Out of game, there's something of a balance issue. Strength adds to melee attack, melee damage, carrying capacity (which no one really pays attention to), and about three skills and a couple of special combat moves. Dexterity, on the other hand, adds to ranged attack, Armor Class, about a dozen or more skills. My point here is, Strength is already nigh-useless to anyone who's not engaging in melee combat. Skillmonkeys, archers, casters, even melee druids don't need it. However, everyone likes Dex, although melee fighters in full plate can live without it. Take one more thing away from Strength and give it to Dex, you risk Dex becoming an uberstat that everyone wants.

Finally, for light weapons and anything else that can be used with precision, there is the Weapon Finesse feat.

That is a lot of simu-posts.

[Driderman]

Well, in True20 dexterity is used to determine your melee to hit, while strength is used for the damage part. Works fine.

[Yechezkiel]

Strength makes sense when the assumption is that hitting is all about overcoming armour.

In an armour as DR game dexterity makes more sense, in the original edition of DnD strength made some sense and it has gone down from there.

Yeah, I agree completely. A lot of new players get confused about what the attack roll actually is... it's not do I hit or not, it's does this attack land in a significant way. Pleanty of "misses" in melee combat should be seen/narrated as clanking of weapons against armor, shield or just plain falling without enough strength behind them... it's not always broad swinging misses and dodges.

[Soepvork]

The problems;

Armour based characters lose out on accuracy because wearing armour makes their dex useless.

Not really, wearing heavy armor only makes Dex useless as far as AC is concerned:

Maximum Dex Bonus

This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...aximumDexBonus

So even in heavy armor a high Dex score can be useful

[The_Snark]

Not really, wearing heavy armor only makes Dex useless as far as AC is concerned:



So even in heavy armor a high Dex score can be useful

But unless the character can't possibly get Strength or Constitution higher, it's almost always going to be better to boost one of those, for a heavy-armor wearer.

Also, using Dexterity to hit only makes sense when you're thinking about a rapier or longsword; something that can be twirled about. Instead, let's look at it applied to a greatsword. Being fast is only going to help you so much; to swiing the sword fast, you're going to need a lot of arm strength. Add that to the already-presented point that a lot of misses are actually just failures to penetrate the armor or shield... yeah.

Obviously, Dex is better for some lighter weapons. That's why there's Weapon Finesse. If you like, you could allow characters to use their Dex or Str with finessable weapons, to make it an easier style to use, or expand the list a little to include a few other appropriate one-handed weapons.

[Matthew]

Indeed. Strength = Speed, as Thomas was fond of pointing out. The idea is that Strength contributes in D&D in both that way and in it's ability to overcome Armour. Bows and Thrown Weapons benefit from Strength in these ways, Cross Bows are obviously the exception.

Well, Dexterity does make sense, in its capacity as measure of spacial awareness and aim.

[Soepvork]

But unless the character can't possibly get Strength or Constitution higher, it's almost always going to be better to boost one of those, for a heavy-armor wearer.

I agree, I just wanted to point out the common misconception about the Max Dex bonus of an armor

[weenie]

So what about if bigger weapons had additional restrictions? I.e. with a greataxe you use dex or str, whichever is the lowest. In this case someone with a high str but low dex wouldn't be hitting stuff because his swings would simply not go in the desired direction, while someone with a high dex and low str simply isn't able to swing the weapon properly. I know it's getting a bit complicated, but the goal here is to make stuff more realistic, and complications are sadly a must.

[Ashes]

I know it's getting a bit complicated, but the goal here is to make stuff more realistic, and complications are sadly a must.

Excuse me, but why on {someone}'s green Earth would you want to make D&D realistic?! It isn't, and it's not a good system for realism. Go play GURPS for realism. Play D&D for slaying a dragon while eating a sandwich. A MAGIC sandwich.

[OzymandiasVolt]

I know it's getting a bit complicated, but the goal here is to make stuff more realistic, and complications are sadly a must.

Or you could just go with the system that's already in place. <_<

[Koji]

Throw in "Improved Weapon Finesse"

Removes the restrictions for what melee weapons can take advantage of the weapon finesse feat, instead allowing dexterity to apply to the hit bonus for any melee attack.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Seriously. D&D combat is fun as a tactical challenge, but as a simulation, it's pretty much worthless.

And I'd also like to add that dexterity and nimbleness aren't really a factor with any rigid weapon weighing more than a couple pounds. You need a lot of force behind a heavy weapon, not precision.

[OzymandiasVolt]

And I'd also like to add that dexterity and nimbleness aren't really a factor with any rigid weapon weighing more than a couple pounds. You need a lot of force behind a heavy weapon, not precision.

EXACTLY. When you're waving around a heavy metal object, increased STRENGTH lets you wield it with more precision because you aren't fighting gravity and the object's inertia all the time.

[NullAshton]

Actually I think I read it explained (somewhere, can't remember where) like this.

Strength affects how much your weapon 'hurts' of course. However, it also affects how fast you can swing a sword. Dexterity isn't speed like most people think, dexterity is how nimble you are and how good your reflexes are.

This same logic can be applied to many things. Jump is strength because you need to move yourself fast in order to jump far. Swim is strength because of the same thing.

Strength affects how often you can 'hit' someone because your sword is moving faster, thus penetrating armor more and making it harder for someone to get out of the way.

[Lemur]

I'll argue that strength being overvalued doesn't even stand as an argument outside of D&D. Other d20 settings aren't as melee oriented as D&D, and strength doesn't necessarily have to be a focus stat for combat characters in, say, a Modern setting.

[Thrawn183]

The real problem is it forces melee types to have good stats in all three physical attributes. We already have problems with players ignoring mental stats because they often don't benefit them enough. Making it even harder to put high rolls in mental stats? It just... doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[de-trick]

its called weapon finesse already thought of

[geez3r]

Ok, here's how this works in my mind:

Using Str for attack rolls:
Using your Strength, you are able to swing large metallic objects at lethal velocity. You do this while still maintaining both your balance and a semblence of accuracy do to your training and ability to keep your weapon's inertia in check. Your opponent's defenses are bypassed by you 1) landing the blow before they have time to gather them, 2) you batter your opponent's sheild/weapon away with your superior strength or 3) your blow packs enough power to get through your foes' armor. This is essentially a quick, violent attack targeted at the general region of your foe's body.

Using Dex for attack rolls:
Using your finesse, you are able to attack in a different manner than your greatsword weilding peers. They attack in broad, furious strokes filled with nothing but power, but none the less effective. At Dexterious attack is powered not by the broad powerful motions of the arms and body, but by a simple flick of the wrist. In this fashion, you are able to attack from different angles than those of your peers, and even if your foe gets their sheild up in time, you twist your wrist and now strike at their unprotected thigh. These are essentially precise, almost surgical strikes at any weakness your opponent has. You do not break their defenses, you merely go around them.

[Matthew]

I dunno, to be honest, a thrusting weapon requires a lot of Strength to penetrate armour, so the whole 'broad strokes' thing doesn't really wash with me. Driving a Sword (whether Short, Long or Great) or Spear into a large Animal or Monster also requires significant Strength, though precision must play a role somewhere along the line (but surely that's represented by skill, i.e. BAB and Weapon Focus, etc...).
Fact is, most Actions and Skills really require a combination of 'Attributes' to be successfully executed. Hiding is as much about Wisdom and Intelligence as it is about Dexterity. Tumbling is a Skill that really requires Strength as much as spacial awareness. Indeed, pretty much any physical action is a combination of Strength and Dexterity, and each could be justified in some way, but in the end, this is a mechanical issue.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, I look at the Weapon Finesse feat as partly training in aiming for vulnerable spots; the joints in armor, near-surface tendons on large animals, etc.