I bow to your superior knowledge....

[rollfrenzy]

OK here's the deal. I would like help designing a archery based cleric. I am allowed all 3.5 splat books, and probably anything online. I will not be able to choose from any domian, but will probably be allowed to have War. Prestige classes are questionable unless they are from something core.

I have to be human.

I rolled stats and got...

17
16
15
15
14
10



We are beginning at oth level and the only thing I get to control about the current level is weapon and one feat. this one feat is my feat for being human, and I will get one for being first level on going up.

I have never played an effective archer before (depsite 10+ years of experience.)

Thanks A Bunch.

[jjpickar]

Pick Up Zen Archery right away so you can apply your wisdom to ranged attack rolls. I think there is an archery domain, if there is get it.

[Jannex]

Yep, Zen Archery is probably the way to go, especially if you're planning on doing the usual heavy-armor-cleric-who-doesn't-care-about-Dex thing. Then you put your 17 into Wisdom and go from there.

[Call Me Siggy]

I'm just going to sit here and wait for everyone to say how ineffective archery is.

Well, it is. Let me summarize a lot of the upcoming posts for you:

-Archery isn't effective, as there are spells and feats that go out of their way to counter them.
-As a Cleric, you're better off using DMM for everything and being generally invincible because of the broken magic system.

Other than that, yeah, Zen Archery. Scout and Ranger are great multiclass choices, as is Soulbow if you have access to psionics. If there's an Archery domain...wlll then, you have your work cut out for you.

[rollfrenzy]

I am fully aware of the downfalls of archery. I could buff up and kill, but we are playing with a new player who is gonna be the "tank" and I would rather try to be affective without stealing his thunder. So... In short I don't care if it's sub optimal cleric, I am looking to optimize a weaker build.

Plus, I have always liked the idea of an archer. I am a cleric of the Roman god Artemis.

[Zherog]

There's lots of spells that make you better at archery, eventually. greater magic weapon is an obvious one. You'll want to only get a +1 enhancement on your bow and spend the other +9 worth of enhancements on special abilities, and use GMW for your enhancement bonus.

Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell can be a good feat choice, even without the ultra-cheese. One spell you'll want to look at -- elation. I know it's in the Book of Exalted Deeds; it may also be in the Spell Compendium.

You'll probably want some method of flight as soon as possible. This makes it harder for the melee guys on the bad guy team to attack you.

Pity you can't be an elf with the Elf domain...

[ZeroNumerous]

Well, PrC wise.. If you don't care about casting theres always Black Flame Zealot. Thats alittle extra boost to your damage output with a bow.

If you just wanna heal the meat, theres always Radiant Servant of [X].

We are beginning at oth level and the only thing I get to control about the current level is weapon and one feat. this one feat is my feat for being human, and I will get one for being first level on going up.

.. Wait. What? How can you have a 0th level caster?

[Call Me Siggy]

There's lots of spells that make you better at archery, eventually. greater magic weapon is an obvious one. You'll want to only get a +1 enhancement on your bow and spend the other +9 worth of enhancements on special abilities, and use GMW for your enhancement bonus.

Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell can be a good feat choice, even without the ultra-cheese. One spell you'll want to look at -- elation. I know it's in the Book of Exalted Deeds; it may also be in the Spell Compendium.

You'll probably want some method of flight as soon as possible. This makes it harder for the melee guys on the bad guy team to attack you.

Pity you can't be an elf with the Elf domain...

...what? There's an Elf domain? O_O

Hmm. Black Flame Zealot. Would be interesting, but is Artemis good in this setting?

I wonder if your DM will allow any of those divine archer of Random Archer Elf God #49603456396 (From Comp. Div, I thin there were at least 2 like that) to be flavor-switched, that's always good.

[Zincorium]

.. Wait. What? How can you have a 0th level caster?

I'm assuming they're using the apprentice level system from 3.0, which wasn't really all that balanced or thought out, but I personally liked having the option of using it.

[ZeroNumerous]

...what? There's an Elf domain? O_O

Yes. As well as Dwarf, Gnome, and others. Blame Faerun.

[rollfrenzy]

.. Wait. What? How can you have a 0th level caster?

Yeah, he is using what I think is home brewed. I just got a card with some numbers on it and he said I could memorize 2 1st level spells and 3 0th level spells, till first level when I can take a class. Not sure where he got the numbers and stuff, but Meh... it's his world I just play in it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yes. As well as Dwarf, Gnome, and others. Blame Faerun.

Hey, there's a Kobold domain.

Just no human domain. Or is that what the Awesome domain is for.

[Jannex]

Plus, I have always liked the idea of an archer. I am a cleric of the Roman god Artemis.

The Greek goddess Artemis. Her Roman counterpart was Diana.

Unfortunately, most of the really nice archery spells I'm familiar with (Arrowmind, Hunter's Mercy, etc.) might be Ranger-only... but I'm far too lazy to find the Spell Compendium and check. If you end up multiclassing (or can con your DM into running gestalt, which I highly recommend ), Ranger's not a bad plan--or Scout, as Call Me Siggy suggested. I adore Scouts. So much fun...

[goat]

Hey, there's a Kobold domain.

Just no human domain. Or is that what the Awesome domain is for.

Yeah, humans get nothing. Everyone else gets racial substitution levels and jazz.

[Damionte]

Since you insist on this course, I would make a light crossbow cleric rather than a bow archer cleric. Clerics don't get proficiency with bows to start.

Also since it's not a specialty type of thign I woulcn't do more than take rapid reload.

Aside from that you're done.

You only need that one feat. Get in your 1d6-1d8 damage a round from range. They're goign to need you more for your other abilities.

Don't blow any other feats on it, like zen archery or the like. Even with feats you're not going to be useful enough in that role to make the feats worth while. Not compared to all of your other class abilities. You don't have to be an archer specialist, just make yourself proficient with rapid reload and leave it alone.

Perhaps later you can take crossbow sniper but that's a long way off.

[Douglas]

Since you insist on this course, I would make a light crossbow cleric rather than a bow archer cleric. Clerics don't get proficiency with bows to start.

They do if they follow the right god(dess) and take the War domain.

I once played a Favored Soul (Complete Divine) archer from level 12 to 19, and even without DMM cheese (no turning) and being limited to core-only for the most part he was very effective with his +1 holy bow. Let's see if I can find his character sheet...

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Extend Spell, Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Craft Wondrous Item, Persistent Spell, Eschew Materials

I got Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat from Favored Soul, it is not available to Clerics. Eschew Materials was taken in preparation for Ignore Material Components in epic, but the campaign didn't get that far. Craft Wondrous Item may or may not work for you depending on available downtime in your campaign (my DM had the wizards guild make portals to fast-time planes (1 day = 1 round) and charge 100 gp to use them so I had effectively unlimited downtime for crafting.) Zen Archery would be an excellent addition.

Notable Spells for archery role: Divine Favor (persist as soon as possible), Magic Vestment (extended, on both armor and shield), Divine Power (persist if you use DMM), Greater Magic Weapon (extended on the bow), Righteous Might (far less useful for ranged than melee, but occasionally worth it), Heroes' Feast (nice buff for the whole party)

Most of these won't come into play for quite a while since you're starting so low level, but they do a lot to help archery keep up at higher levels. At low levels, the differential isn't big enough yet for you to really need them.

[greenknight]

War Domain is bad for a Cleric, even a combat orientated one. Since you have to be Human, start with Point Blank Shot. Add Precise Shot at 1st level, Zen Archery at 3rd (the earliest you can get it, single classed) and Longbow proficiency at 6th. Consider factoring the strengh bonus you get from Divine Power, and maybe even Righteous Might, into your longbow. It will mean you take a -2 penalty to hit when you don't have those boosts active, but the extra damage is usually worthwhile. After that, you might want to consider whether you want to make archery you main contribution to battle, since your spells are going to be more effective overall. If you want to continue, things like Rapid Shot and Manyshot should be your feats of choice, if your character qualifies for them.

[Matthew]

Whoah? Clarification please. War Domain is bad for a Cleric who wants to use a Long Bow? It's an effective +5 to hit (Proficiency and Weapon Focus). Seems like the perfect choice to me (even better if you could find one that has the Great Bow as his weapon).

[Lycurgus]

Since you insist on this course, I would make a light crossbow cleric rather than a bow archer cleric. Clerics don't get proficiency with bows to start.

Also since it's not a specialty type of thign I woulcn't do more than take rapid reload.

Aside from that you're done.

You only need that one feat. Get in your 1d6-1d8 damage a round from range. They're goign to need you more for your other abilities.

Don't blow any other feats on it, like zen archery or the like. Even with feats you're not going to be useful enough in that role to make the feats worth while. Not compared to all of your other class abilities. You don't have to be an archer specialist, just make yourself proficient with rapid reload and leave it alone.

Perhaps later you can take crossbow sniper but that's a long way off.

And of course precise shot so you don't shoot your friends quite so much , which requires point blank shot as a prerequisite. But the whole thing with the bow archer is flavor I think, not whether or not there is a pre-existing case of proficiency in the bow. Personally, I like it. I've always been willing to take penalties in order to further a character concept.

[greenknight]

Whoah? Clarification please.

The War Domain is bad because:

1) You don't get to choose the weapon, and if you want a ranged weapon like a longbow, it's especially difficult to find a God who provides it and has the War domain. I notice someone mentioning Artemis earlier in the thread, but even that won't do if you use the RAW. According to Dieties and Demigods, Artemis doesn't have the War domain, and even if she did, her favored weapon is a short sword. I've looked through the standard D&D pantheon, the FR pantheon (even using Faiths & Pantheons) and even the Eberron setting, and I could not find even one God which had Longbow as a favored weapon (although I admit it's possible one does exist). Nearly all had melee weapons, with a small number using weapons which can be thrown like spears, tridents and javelins (the only weapon which is actually listed as a ranged weapon).

2) One of the most powerful benefits of choosing a Domain is the non-class based spells it grants. The first 6 levels of the War Domain grant spells you have access to anyway, and at the same level. The 7th - 9th level spells are non-class, but affect only a single target per casting and have some serious limits on their use, making them relatively weak spells for their level. And the effects of these spells can be (somewhat) duplicated by the existing Cleric spell list anyway (dictum, holy word etc can provide all of these effects, for example, although with they have their own limitations).

[Matthew]

1) Not a problem. Worship a cause, choose your Domains and Weapon. Problem solved.

2) Yeah, well, hardly a big deal for the Cleric who wants to use a Long Bow. The Spells aren't great, but I don't really see it as a problem, given all the other Spells they have access to.

[greenknight]

1) Not a problem. Worship a cause, choose your Domains and Weapon. Problem solved.

As written, you'd need to worship a diety to get the weapon, so technically you'd just forfeit that benefit. Even if you allowed a philosophy to grant a weapon, it should only grant the same weapons as provided by the Spiritual Weapon spell.

Yeah, well, hardly a big deal for the Cleric who wants to use a Long Bow. The Spells aren't great, but I don't really see it as a problem, given all the other Spells they have access to.

Think about what else you could get. Even at low levels, there's things like Longstrider (Travel), Invisibility (Trickery), Expeditious Retreat and Cat's Grace (Celerity), True Strike and Cat's Grace (Elf), Ray of Enfeeblement (Envy), True Strike (Fate), Cat's Grace (Halfling), Displacement (Illusion), Invisibility (Lust), Heroism (Pride), Anyspell (Spell) and True Strike and Haste (Time). All of those are 3rd level Domain spells or below, and none are available to Clerics as part of their regular spell list.

[Matthew]

I see no real reason to think that. For all intents and purposes a Cause replaces a Deity. If you choose the Cause of War and X, there's no reason to think that your Character could not simply choose a Favoured Weapon appropriate to that Cause. There is no guidance about what to do in that instance, but it seems odd to penalise a player in this way.

Yeah, sure, some of those Spells are useful, but you can get access to some of them with your Second Domain and you can always research any you desperately need.

[Zherog]

I've looked through the ... FR pantheon (even using Faiths & Pantheons) ... and I could not find even one God which had Longbow as a favored weapon (although I admit it's possible one does exist).

Yep. You missed Shevarash (page 130, Faiths and Pantheons) and Solonor Thelandira (page 131, Faiths and Pantheons).

[Kiroho]

Beg for a quiver of these.

[greenknight]

For all intents and purposes a Cause replaces a Deity.

The PHB makes a clear distinction between a Diety and a Cause, and since the benefit of the War Domain specifies the Diety's favored weapon, there's no reason to believe it also applies to Causes. That said, allowing the weapons listed under Spiritual Weapon seems like a good compromise for those Clerics who worship a cause and take the War Domain.

Yeah, sure, some of those Spells are useful, but you can get access to some of them with your Second Domain and you can always research any you desperately need.

But you've still thrown away one Domain. And I really doubt you can just research spells from different Domains to get them on your class spell list, otherwise they would have been Cleric spells in the first place.

You missed Shevarash (page 130, Faiths and Pantheons) and Solonor Thelandira (page 131, Faiths and Pantheons).

That's because they aren't listed in the summary at the back of the book. Gotta love summaries that don't summarize significant portions of the book...

In any event, the point still holds. All you really need is one Feat (WP: Longbow), and nearly all the benefit of the War Domain is yours already (or you could just be an Elf and get a Dexterity bonus as well). Sure, you don't get the +1 from Weapon Focus, but that's a relatively minor benefit. In exchange, you've lost out on the other Domain special abilities you could have had, including a number of Domain spells which could be very useful to an archer.

[Aximili]

well, i suport the idea.

And there's a spell in the SpC that gives +10 dex. Try persisting that ;)

[Matthew]

The PHB makes a clear distinction between a Diety and a Cause, and since the benefit of the War Domain specifies the Diety's favored weapon, there's no reason to believe it also applies to Causes. That said, allowing the weapons listed under Spiritual Weapon seems like a good compromise for those Clerics who worship a cause and take the War Domain.

Deity. Actually, there is a very blurred distinction between these two things. Check out Deities and Demi Gods for more information. Causes are not well defined altogether, but I agree that there is no clear indication either way.

But you've still thrown away one Domain. And I really doubt you can just research spells from different Domains to get them on your class spell list, otherwise they would have been Cleric spells in the first place.

I just don't see how it matters. Clerics have plenty of Spells and they cannot research Feats. Once that Feat is burnt, it's gone. Clerics get a sum total of seven Feats over twenty levels, they're a precious resource.

In any event, the point still holds. All you really need is one Feat (WP: Longbow), and nearly all the benefit of the War Domain is yours already (or you could just be an Elf and get a Dexterity bonus as well). Sure, you don't get the +1 from Weapon Focus, but that's a relatively minor benefit. In exchange, you've lost out on the other Domain special abilities you could have had, including a number of Domain spells which could be very useful to an archer.

Heh. Yes, being an Elf makes taking the War Domain less great for an Archer Cleric.