Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[PallentisLunam]

Wouldn't this be murder, which is one of those always evil acts?

If the individuals in question are a group of elf children playing in their tree fort. Yes. 100%

If instead they are a squad of forest goblins seconds from springing a deadly ambush on a group of unsuspecting travelers, then no.

[Aimeryan]

If we are going to discuss the dysfunction of killing a fiend as being an evil act then we sort of need to get into what constitutes good and evil acts.



The only reason we can say "Killed fiend: good act" is because we are told that regardless of anything else killing a fiend is always a good act. The same doesn't apply for evil acts, they have to be analysed for the intentions and knowledge of their perpetrators. In fact, I believe that either BoVD or BoED addresses this exact type of scenario, using a paladin, a villain, and an unstable cliff overlooking a house, but the gist is that for an act to be evil it must be intentional and the perpetrator must have foreknowledge of the reasonable outcome.

In your example someone who was unaware of the tree house and inadvertently startles the house cat has not committed an evil act because they neither intended to cause harm nor knew that their actions were likely to. Someone who meant to startle the house cat but was unaware of the tree house has also not committed evil because although they intended to scare the cat it is a highly unlikely scenario for a startled cat to cause the death of others. Someone who was aware of the tree house, and its instability, but who startled the cat inadvertently, has not done evil because they lack the intent to do so. However, if someone knew about the tree house and startled the cat into the tree house with the express purpose of causing it to fall, killing the inhabitants then, depending on the nature of the inhabitants, which hasn't even been addressed, they may have committed an evil act.

Agreed; if you are acutely aware of the consequences then I suppose even inaction could be an evil act.

So, the dysfunction with the "killing a fiend is always a good act" is that if you are acutely aware that killing the fiend will lead to some horrible evil then it isn't really a good act to kill the fiend.

[Gemini476]

Agreed; if you are acutely aware of the consequences then I suppose even inaction could be an evil act.

So, the dysfunction with the "killing a fiend is always a good act" is that if you are acutely aware that killing the fiend will lead to some horrible evil then it isn't really a good act to kill the fiend.

Well, killing the fiend is a good act but there may be other evil consequences that happen due to it.

If you have a trolley and have the opportunity to redirect it to hit a Succubus and two innocent Good prisoners, killing the Succubus is Good but killing the innocents is double-plus ungood. A Paladin would fall (assuming that, say, the Trolley wasn't heading towards a dozen newborn [Good] infants) but most others wouldn't exactly need to worry about an alignment change.


Now, the really funky thing starts when you get a Chaotic Evil Paladin of Slaughter who kills a Lawful Evil Devil and falls because killing a Fiend is a good act.

[No brains]

We could just put both relative AND objective moral acts in the Handbook and call it a day.

[Inevitability]

The MM says:

About a third of the giants in a band or tribe are giant children, who can be formidable creatures in their own right. When a group of giants includes children, roll d% for each child to deter- mine maturity: 01–25 infant (no combat ability); 26–50 juve- nile (two sizes smaller than an adult, 8 fewer HD, –8 Strength, –8 Constitution, and 1 rank in each skill that an adult has); and 51–100 adolescent (one size smaller than an adult, 4 fewer HD, –4 Strength, –4 Constitution, and 2, 3, or 4 ranks in each skill that an adult has). Giant children can throw rocks if they meet the minimum size requirement (see above). Except when otherwise noted, giant children are identical with adults of their variety.

This causes trouble when applied to the Bog Giant or Phaerlin Giant, both of which have only 8 HD.

Also, RAW giants are born large or huge-sized, then shrink two sizes upon becoming juvenile, only to slowly grow back to their old size again.

[Troacctid]

The MM says:



This causes trouble when applied to the Bog Giant or Phaerlin Giant, both of which have only 8 HD.

They're not in the MM though. They're outside the scope of the passage you quoted.

Also, RAW giants are born large or huge-sized, then shrink two sizes upon becoming juvenile, only to slowly grow back to their old size again.

This is just the "children have no statblocks" dysfunction again. Giant babies are undefined, and information about their stats is intentionally withheld so the players don't go fighting babies like it's a combat encounter. We only have stats for adults (and I guess juveniles).

[Inevitability]

This is just the "children have no statblocks" dysfunction again. Giant babies are undefined, and information about their stats is intentionally withheld so the players don't go fighting babies like it's a combat encounter. We only have stats for adults (and I guess juveniles).

Except it specifically says giant children are otherwise the same as adults. That's a line that doesn't appear in the description of any other creature.

[Troacctid]

Oh, I guess you're right. Yeah, okay, that's weird.

[Troacctid]

Here's one. Control sound allows you to use up the power in an instant to break unattended nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramics, or porcelain in the area. Only problem is...the power doesn't have an area.

[PallentisLunam]

Here's one. Control sound allows you to use up the power in an instant to break unattended nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramics, or porcelain in the area. Only problem is...the power doesn't have an area.

It's a nonmechanical term. The preceding paragraph refers to 'the immediate area [of the sound]"

[ShurikVch]

Article "The Way of the Gun" (Dragon #321) allow to add Breachloading to any kind of firearms.
"Any kind", obviously, include cannons...
Except, Breachloading actually doesn't anything for cannons: it change reload time from Standard Action to Move Action; cannons are reloaded as a Full-Round Action (at minimum; insufficient crew may prolong it to multiple rounds)


Drugs (Book of Vile Darkness):

Agony (Liquid Pain):
...
It is highly sought after by outsiders.

Yugoloths, Devils, Demons, and Demodands are all immune to poisons, and thus - to drugs too

[Flickerdart]

Drugs (Book of Vile Darkness):Yugoloths, Devils, Demons, and Demodands are all immune to poisons, and thus - to drugs too

It doesn't say that it's sought after for the narcotic properties.

[Inevitability]

It doesn't say that it's sought after for the narcotic properties.

Forcing the distilled essence of pure pain down someone's throat might be interesting for a group of outsiders whose entire existence resolves around causing harm in some way indeed.

[ace rooster]

Found one related to monsters with gear. When outfitting a monster with class levels, it gets gear based on it's total ECL, not it's CR*. For a CR 8 hill giant fighter this gives ECL of 17, so it has 100,000gp of gear. A party of 4 8th level PCs should have 108,000gp total. This gets worse if you throw in non associated class levels. A hill giant wizard 4 would get 220,000gp, while only being cr 9.

* The rule is specifically about monsters with class levels, so overwrites the more general rule about giving treasure based on CR.

[ShurikVch]

It doesn't say that it's sought after for the narcotic properties.

So, outsiders are drug dealers?
I can believe it.
After all, it's called "angel dust"...

The Vampire Lord template funny interacts with Moonbane Vampire from Libris Mortis: Moonbane Vampire Lord can endure sunlight without any serious danger, but moonlight still cause slowing effect. The only exception from this is if the Moonbane Vampire in question if Prismatic Dragon: Prismatic Dragons are immune to any light, period - including shots of laser weaponry

Kolter Firearms for Freeport (in the Dragon Magazine Annual 2001) have some strange rules:
1) Misfire table: at mildest misfire gun may be used normally on the next turn; second worst possible misfire required to clean the weapon for 1 hour before using again; but the worst misfire is "Kaboom!": weapon cause damage not to the target, but to the gunman. Problem: RAW doesn't says you need to repair or replace the weapon after the "Kaboom!" - thus, you can reload and shoot it as usual (assuming you survived the damage, and combat isn't ended before you finished reloading)
2) New feat Firearms Drill: it "reduce your reload time by one full-round action" (normally, it takes 3 full-round actions). Problem: you can take that feat multiple times, and it isn't weapon-specific. So, how many of novice gunmen wouldn't starting a game with "Firearms Drill, Firearms Drill, Firearms Drill" as their starting feats, thus making reload into non-action? Yes, it's works, just - kinda too well. Is it exactly what the creators aimed for?
3) Titan GG Swivel Gun is "normally crewed by two men". Problem: it doesn't says what's happens if it crewed by the different numbers. And once again, Firearms Drill: should all crew members have it to affect the reloading time, or just one will be enough? (Or, maybe, Firearms Drill just doesn't works with Swivel Guns?)

[bekeleven]

Found one related to monsters with gear. When outfitting a monster with class levels, it gets gear based on it's total ECL, not it's CR*. For a CR 8 hill giant fighter this gives ECL of 17, so it has 100,000gp of gear. A party of 4 8th level PCs should have 108,000gp total. This gets worse if you throw in non associated class levels. A hill giant wizard 4 would get 220,000gp, while only being cr 9.

* The rule is specifically about monsters with class levels, so overwrites the more general rule about giving treasure based on CR.

Get ready for a hell of a fight because this hill giant just drank one hundred thousand gold worth of potions.

[No brains]

Mmmmmaybe you could say that the extra ECL wealth goes into building their fortress and hiring the other mobs as hirelings? If the PCs have to pay for every brick and bricklayer that helps them, maybe the NPCs do too. The missing gold is because the PCs actually find comparatively great deals on their sources.

[Flickerdart]

The Vampire Lord template funny interacts with Moonbane Vampire from Libris Mortis: Moonbane Vampire Lord can endure sunlight without any serious danger, but moonlight still cause slowing effect. The only exception from this is if the Moonbane Vampire in question if Prismatic Dragon: Prismatic Dragons are immune to any light, period - including shots of laser weaponry

I don't actually recall the Moonbane template giving protection against the sunlight, only vulnerability to the moon.

[ShurikVch]

I don't actually recall the Moonbane template giving protection against the sunlight, only vulnerability to the moon.

It doesn't; but Vampire Lord does.
The problem there is: Moonbane fluffed as being so hyper-sensitive to light so even the weak light of non-full Moon cause notable problems.
Vampire Lord isn't harmed by sunlight... but moonlight will bother him all the same

[Kuu Lightwing]

A recently found one by our group:

By RAW Prone condition doesn't restrict movement. It does have some penalties, and does say what you have to do to end the condition (stand up), but it doesn't say that you have to crawl to move while being prone. Contrariwise, crawling just says that you can move five feet while provoking AoO, but it doesn't say that you can do it while being prone or that you need to be prone to do so.

It doesn't change your movement speed, too, doesn't say that you can't charge or run like some other conditions do, so I guess if a character gets knocked down, she can just Withdraw from the enemy, jumping and climbing if needed?

[Story]

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.

If you interpret Protection from Evil literally, the AC and save bonus apply to everything. The followup sentence reminds you that they apply to attacks from evil creatures, which they do, but it doesn't say they only apply to evil creatures.

[Inevitability]

If you interpret Protection from Evil literally, the AC and save bonus apply to everything. The followup sentence reminds you that they apply to attacks from evil creatures, which they do, but it doesn't say they only apply to evil creatures.

Deliberate misreadings have no place in this thread.

[Jormengand]

Deliberate misreadings have no place in this thread.

No, I think that's a legitimate dysfunction. The second sentence is missing an "Only" which would have turned the sentence from a redundant expansion-type statement to a relevant limitation-type statement. The armour bonus to AC from wearing full plate also applies against evil creatures, after all. (Assuming they're not making touch attacks or the like, which is a limitation-type statement).

[Debatra]

How did I know you would object to someone saying that deliberate misreadings have no place here...

[Powerdork]

And even if it's not dysfunctional in that specific way, it applies to "effects created by evil creatures" and "attacks made". (If they wanted to specify attacks made by evil creatures, the appropriate wording would be "attacks made by, and effects created by, evil creatures".)

[georgie_leech]

Without taking a fine toothed comb to the grammar, did anyone actually think PfE applied to all attacks and not just those made by evil creatures?

[ShurikVch]

Note: PfE supress any possession or mind control, not just by Evil creatures.

[Story]

Without taking a fine toothed comb to the grammar, did anyone actually think PfE applied to all attacks and not just those made by evil creatures?

I doubt it, but people argue that Reserves of Strength is uncapped using an even more dubious analysis of grammar. Of course, I imagine the later is mostly because doing so lets people accomplish silly things.

[The Random NPC]

Without taking a fine toothed comb to the grammar, did anyone actually think PfE applied to all attacks and not just those made by evil creatures?

Yes, I used to stack all the Protections to boost my AC.

[PallentisLunam]

They're all deflection bonuses, they don't stack.