Sleight of Hand (in combat)

[Yechezkiel]

Does Sleight of Hand work just like 'Grabbing Items' (PHB pg. 155), only incredibly easier to pull off?

I know Sleight of Hand isn't an amazing skill, but I can see a lot of good combat uses for it if the DC is only a flat 20.

[Gavin Sage]

I'd generally stipulate you can't use Sleight of Hand to pickpocket in combat with a character who is aware of and hostile towards you. Since they are observing you and reacting defensively, You reach out a hand, thats an attack. Its why the grabbing rule would exist period.

If unaware then no reason to not be able to nab something. However it would be small as per SoH rules. And not shall we say in use since that's prying something from another's grip.

[Yechezkiel]

I'd generally stipulate you can't use Sleight of Hand to pickpocket in combat with a character who is aware of and hostile towards you. Since they are observing you and reacting defensively, You reach out a hand, thats an attack. Its why the grabbing rule would exist period.

If unaware then no reason to not be able to nab something. However it would be small as per SoH rules. And not shall we say in use since that's prying something from another's grip.

Read Sleight of Hand to take an item off of someone again though, if you hit the DC 20 you succeed... the target merely gets a Spot check (DC your Sleight of Hand check) to notice. That's why I wondering about this.

[SpiderBrigade]

I'd probably allow it if they were flanked, based on the idea that they'd be distracted by the other person's attacks and not notice you darting in to snatch their purse or whatever. I'd also allow it if you were invisible or otherwise hidden.

That said, there'd be a hefty, hefty situation modifier on the check, since you'd only have that tiny window of opportunity. Not less than -5, and probably more like -10 or 15. A really skilled pickpocket could do this, but it wouldn't be easy.

Finally, if the target succeeds on the check to notice you taking the item, they'd get an Attack of Opportunity. I can't decide if that would stop you from taking the item. Possibly a successful attack would cause the item to drop in their square.

[Human Paragon 3]

I would totally allow it, just raise the DC to 30.

Q: But at that rate, why not just use the grabbing rules, it'd be easier.
A: Not so. A decent thief will pull it off every time with skill focus and the rogue ability that lets you take 10 during tense situations.

[Yechezkiel]

I'd probably allow it if they were flanked, based on the idea that they'd be distracted by the other person's attacks and not notice you darting in to snatch their purse or whatever. I'd also allow it if you were invisible or otherwise hidden.

That said, there'd be a hefty, hefty situation modifier on the check, since you'd only have that tiny window of opportunity. Not less than -5, and probably more like -10 or 15. A really skilled pickpocket could do this, but it wouldn't be easy.

Finally, if the target succeeds on the check to notice you taking the item, they'd get an Attack of Opportunity. I can't decide if that would stop you from taking the item. Possibly a successful attack would cause the item to drop in their square.

It only works on small objects, and then again is subject to how secure the item is... it's a Standard Action or Free Action at -20, so I'm thinking the flat DC 20 is a fair use of a turn to lift some small items off an opponent.

[barawn]

to snatch their purse or whatever.

Purse?!

God, no. There's a much better small item to steal when in combat (or this, similarly).

There was an old article on Wizards.com which mentioned exactly that tactic for rogues, although they never mentioned mechanically how it would work. I usually bump up the DC to 30 in general for combat, and 40 if the target is aware of and engaging you alone (i.e. not distracted).

[Gavin Sage]

Read Sleight of Hand to take an item off of someone again though, if you hit the DC 20 you succeed... the target merely gets a Spot check (DC your Sleight of Hand check) to notice. That's why I wondering about this.

I'm saying that you shouldn't be able to preform the skill in combat at all because it involves reaching out and touching some. There's no logical difference between that and an unarmed attack, actually its more involved then throwing a punch. Given that we already have grabbing rules for in combat, and they are the same basic action, normal circumstances would mean you use grabbing rules.

In other words not try to break the game simply because something wasn't explicitly barred in the skill description. If SoH explicitly allowed its use in combat we'd have another issue. Or if you can arrange for your enemy to not be defending themself against you.

[Yechezkiel]

I'm saying that you shouldn't be able to preform the skill in combat at all because it involves reaching out and touching some. There's no logical difference between that and an unarmed attack, actually its more involved then throwing a punch. Given that we already have grabbing rules for in combat, and they are the same basic action, normal circumstances would mean you use grabbing rules.

In other words not try to break the game simply because something wasn't explicitly barred in the skill description. If SoH explicitly allowed its use in combat we'd have another issue. Or if you can arrange for your enemy to not be defending themself against you.

I was viewing it more as the rules allowing a Dexterous Rogue to use a skill he can put ranks in and get better at rather then the Grabbing Items rules that put them in a bad position. You are viewing it as an attempt to break the rules.

[Curmudgeon]

Using Sleight of Hand (or any other standard action skill) in combat is most certainly permitted by the rules. Apply the standard circumstance modifier:

Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder

Also remember that such use provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and taking damage on the AoO is likely to foil the skill use. (You can avoid the AoO in the first place, or succeed despite taking damage, with a sufficient Concentration check -- but that's a cross-class skill for Rogues.)

Note too that filching a sheathed weapon (of any size) from an opponent requires a DC 50 SoH check.

[Yechezkiel]

Using Sleight of Hand (or any other standard action skill) in combat is most certainly permitted by the rules. Apply the standard circumstance modifier:Also remember that such use provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and taking damage on the AoO is likely to foil the skill use. (You can avoid the AoO in the first place, or succeed despite taking damage, with a sufficient Concentration check -- but that's a cross-class skill for Rogues.)

Note too that filching a sheathed weapon (of any size) from an opponent requires a DC 50 SoH check.

Where can I find the reason SoH provokes and AoO, and where is that DC 50 SoH check? I'm trying to get everything on Sleight of Hand in print together now.

[barawn]

There's no logical difference between that and an unarmed attack, actually its more involved then throwing a punch.

Sleight of Hand is more about distraction than it is actually attacking. Is it more involved? Yes. Which is why it requires a skill.

An unarmed strike wouldn't be right - you're not trying to beat someone's armor, since what you're trying to take is outside the armor. A touch attack coupled with a Sleight of Hand check makes more sense, if you want to restrict that.

Sleight of Hand really is a DM's choice for DCs, but saying you can't use it in combat is just silly. The DC 50 skill check for stealing a sheathed weapon comes from Epic usages of SoH, and it's fairly involved: you steal a sheathed weapon and hide it on your own person. Clearly, the DC for just stealing the sheathed weapon should be lower, and clearly, the DC for stealing a smaller object should be even lower than that.

And if the other person's distracted, it should be lower. If the other person's not even aware you're there (hidden or invisible), I don't really see why it would be much higher than the DC 20 listed.

[barawn]

Where can I find the reason SoH provokes and AoO, and where is that DC 50 SoH check? I'm trying to get everything on Sleight of Hand in print together now.

The DC 50 SoH check is in Epic usages of Sleight of Hand. The AoO is in Actions in Combat: skills that take one action (sleight of hand) usually provoke an AoO. Yes, that's vague, but there's really very little in the SRD about trying to steal things during combat, which is unfortunate, in my mind. The idea that a rogue who's dextrous enough to steal something without noticing would just stand by and not try to quick grab the holy symbol that the cleric's holding out, trying to cast his Mega Powerful Spell is just crazy.

[Skjaldbakka]

There is a lot more involved in sleight of hand than just *yoink*. Your typical pickpocket is going to bump into you, shake hands, or something along those lines, to distract you while he takes something small off your person. Granted, D&D isn't about realism, but that's how it tends to work. I'd say it is practically impossible to pull this off against someone who is wary of you(such as in combat), because you would have to go for just the *yoink*, and skip the set-up.

Which would make it DC 40, which a high level dextrous rogue could do.

You would probably need a skill boost item to pull this off at mid-levels. I would opt for the hidden or invisible rogue to do this, without the penalty. And yes, a spell component pouch would be the thing to grab, provided you can tell it apart from the coin purse.

[Tengu]

Stealing from enemies in combat... been playing much Final Fantasy lately?

[barawn]

because you would have to go for just the *yoink*, and skip the set-up.

DC 40 is what I'd set as the base, too. If the character's lost their Dex bonus to AC, however, I'd lower it to DC 30, and if the character's unaware of the rogue, DC 20.

It makes sense, for instance - you could feint, trying to draw them off balance (to expose the side with the item you want to take), and then filch the item. That's equivalent to not skipping the set up. It takes two rounds, though.

Or if you imagine the big fighter's tackled someone, and wrestling with them, the rogue comes over... and *yoink* 'thanks, I'll take that."

Or, for even more fun - imagine surrounding someone with 4 rogues, and everyone Aid Anothering the rogue on the skill check - 3 rogues simultaneously stabbing at his front to force the character to back into the rogue who actually attempts the steal.

[Arbitrarity]

There's already something for this, called disarm. I might allow a Sleight of hand check opposed by a spot check to steal something, followed by an attack roll (with the opponent having a penalty) for disarm, without provoking AOO.

Or maybe a sleight of hand opposed by an spot check to which the opponent adds BAB (As feint) for the same purpose, but only loosely held items.

[barawn]

There's already something for this, called disarm. I might allow a Sleight of hand check opposed by a spot check to steal something, followed by an attack roll (with the opponent having a penalty) for disarm, without provoking AOO.

What's amazing is that I've replied about three or four times without even noticing that in my notes, the SoH section says "combine with a disarm action if aware of opponent."

Although now that I notice it, there's no bonus on the disarm attempt if the opponent's distracted, which doesn't make much sense (since it's an opposed attack roll). Obviously flanking gives you this automatically, but feinting should as well, as well as being flat-footed.

[Person_Man]

I'd definitely allow it, and at the normal DC. If an enemy isn't physically holding something or wearing it in such a way that it cannot be simply pulled away (like armor) then it should absolutely be susceptible to being taken from him in combat.

But I'd also grant the enemy an attack of opportunity. There are ways around this (Flat Footed, Invisible, etc) but it seems to clearly fall into the realm of things that would provoke one.

I also believe (and often demonstrate) that Skill Monkeys tend to be towards the bottom of the power spectrum in D&D. Full progression spellcasters can accomplish almost anything a Skill Monkey can do, but better. Melee builds with decent Int and a good Skill list (and/or Able Learner) can be just as good at Skills as a Monkey, albeit from a more limited number of tasks. So if you're playing a Skill Monkey and find a creative way to use Sleight of Hand or Craft (traps) or Use Rope or whatever, my default position is to support it.

[KIDS]

I believe it would still fall into either disarm or sunder category. In rare cases where I'd make it available, it would fall into "practically impossible" grade.

But yet, stealing (sundering, disarming, etc.) spell component pouches or holy symbols is a good but sadly underused tactic :(

[PerasThorngage]

Actually I have this in combat in my game and it falls into the category that someone here already mentioned.

Touch Attack+DC 50 SOH check+ Attack of Opportunity vs an aware non flat footed enemy

Touch Attack + DC 30 SOH check vs an aware, but flat footed opponent (I.E. a non combat relfexes fighter who lost initiative to the rogue)

DC 30 SOH check vs an unaware/flat footed opponent (I.E. while the fighter is dealing with someone else the ninja is invisible and attempts to steal something)

My reasonings for this is that you see all the times in movies where the crook (rogue) steals the cops (fighter) gun and shoots at the cop.

Reasonings it should not be a disarm check is because it is not being held which would make it much more easy to accomplish.

Friendly neighborhood DM

[Matthew]

Looking at the sleight of Hand Skill entry...

Sleight Of Hand (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

Check
A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

See also: epic usages of Sleight Of Hand.

Sleight of Hand DCs Sleight of Hand DC Task
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a small object from a person
Action
Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

Try Again
Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.

Special
If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.

Untrained
An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body.

...I don't think this use was intended at all. Up to you if you allow it, but it seems to me this falls under the Combat Rules for Grabbing an item... saying that, I imagine the Complete Scoundrel elaborates on what is and is not possible with Sleight of Hand. I probably wouldn't allow it.

[Yechezkiel]

Looking at the sleight of Hand Skill entry...

...I don't think this use was intended at all. Up to you if you allow it, but it seems to me this falls under the Combat Rules for Grabbing an item... saying that, I imagine the Complete Scoundrel elaborates on what is and is not possible with Sleight of Hand. I probably wouldn't allow it.

Just a question to you and others who oppose it in combat: Why? Is the DC 20 too low compared to the involved process that is 'Grabbing Items'?

[Matthew]

It's just my opinion (and I don't have access to the Complete Scoundrel), but the Skill description doesn't strike me as being intended for combat circumstances. Sleight of Hand appears to be focused on removing things from people unnoticed, not the actual removal of said items.

[Edit] Although, as I see it, you could use it in combat, but not to actually remove the item, just to prevent the opponent realising that you had removed it.

[Yechezkiel]

It's just my opinion (and I don't have access to the Complete Scoundrel), but the Skill description doesn't strike me as being intended for combat circumstances. Sleight of Hand appears to be focused on removing things from people unnoticed, not the actual removal of said items.

[Edit] Although, as I see it, you could use it in combat, but not to actually remove the item, just to prevent the opponent realising that you had removed it.

Yeah, but this probably overcomplicates things... would SoH let you pull off the 'Grabbing' without the AoO, without the opposed roll, etc. etc.. Thanks though, I was looking for more interpretations as it really doesn't appear clarified in text.

[Matthew]

Well, the way I would rule it is that the AoO still applies, as it is only the removal of said item that has been disguised not the 'coming too close' part, but yeah, it's a blurry area and I wouldn't be opposed to people ruling otherwise.

[Bagera]

Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

Doesn't that pretty much imply that you'd be using it in combat or combat like situations?

[Yechezkiel]

Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

Doesn't that pretty much imply that you'd be using it in combat or combat like situations?

I'd like to call in a RAW lawyer at this point.

[Nerd-o-rama]

RAW paralegal here, with the relevant rules citation:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm

Action

Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

As a note, RAW aside, I had an NPC to pick a player's pocket in a recent combat with an unarmed touch attack and a successful SoH check. Seeing as the character was based loosely on Locke from Final Fantasy VI, it seemed appropriate.

[Matthew]

Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

Doesn't that pretty much imply that you'd be using it in combat or combat like situations?

I shouldn't think so. Opening a Lock is a Full Round Action, it doesn't follow that it is therefore a Combat Action. D&D gives all such small measurements of time in terms of Actions.