So, I took the Otherworldly Feat...

[Duskwither]

... From the FR Campaign Setting book. I'm now proficient in all Martial Weapons because I'm an Outsider now. Awesome, yes?

Seriously though, getting a free Proficiency with all Martial Weapons seems a bit too awesome. Is there anyone who would snip at that part of being an Outsider via this feat?

[Damionte]

Being an outsider doesn't give you martial weapon proficiency for free.

What does your feat actually say? Can you quote it please. It's a 3.0 book so I don't have it sitting in front of me at work.

[Yechezkiel]

Every group I know snips at that... the feat only changes your type, grants you Darkvision, and gives you +2 Diplomacy (and isn't that enough for a 1st-lvl feat?).

[Arbitrarity]

Features
An outsider has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

Actually, they are. I would hope the change doesn't retroactively affect too much.

[Yechezkiel]

Actually, they are. I would hope the change doesn't retroactively affect too much.

If anyone else doesn't see the problem with one feat replacing multiple Martial Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, you are hopeless.

[Damionte]

You're not an outsider. You're "considered" an outside. similar to the 20th level Monk ability.

You'll need to quote the feat.

[Arbitrarity]

I'm not saying it's not broken, I'm saying outisders are auto proficient with all martial weapons.

So are 1'st level fighters.

[Like a Lion]

If anyone else doesn't see the problem with one feat replacing multiple Martial Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, you are hopeless.

Or maybe proficiencies are a crappy use of feats--a fighter level replaces ALL non-exotic weapon and armor proficiencies, c'mon. "Proficient with such-and-such particular weapon" is a very, very weak feat.

Otherworldly does make you an outsider, and it's way too good... but not because of the weapons thing, because it makes you an outsider. Alter Self into outsiders, Polymorph into outsiders, et cetera. And that's on top of becoming immune to _____ Person spells, gaining Darkvision, and whatever else. the weapon proficiencies are a drop in the bucket.

[Yechezkiel]

You're not an outsider. You're "considered" an outside. similar to the 20th level Monk ability.

You'll need to quote the feat.

It's in the Players' Guide to Faerun, we cannot quote it here.


P.s. And it is a 3.5 book.

[Arbitrarity]

Part of the feat says basically, your creature type is outsider (native).

You're an outsider.

[Damionte]

Ok what rules are we goign to use. Imean if we are going 3.0 only "which apparantly you are" I suppose you can play it as written.

There's a reason though we've moved on to 3.5.

In 3.5 outsider is no longer a template of it's own. The different outsiders have been broken up into thier own groups. For instance in forgotten Realms Asimars and tieflings are now (celestial) and or (Fiendish) in 3.5 rather than simply(outsider).

The concept of becoming a template type compared to being considered a template type also changed.

If you guys are goign to play it qwith the 3.0 rules then go for it. It's your game. Under the current ruleset it wouldn't work. That feat doesn't even exist in 3.5

[Duskwither]

Yeah, I can't quote it directly, but it specifically mentions I'm not a Humanoid, but an Outsider.

I gotta say, it's one heck of an awesome feat. Despite the controversy of it all, that is.

Sure makes getting into something like Eldritch Knight cheesey easy, though.

Edit: Whoa, my apologies, but I hadn't realized it was reprinted in the Player's Guide to Faerun at first, but it's just plain better there anyway. It's a 3.5 character.

[SpiderBrigade]

Damionte, what on earth are you talking about? The Player's Guide to Faerun web enhancement updates monsters to 3.5, and the various planetouched have the type Outsider (native) just like they always do.

[Damionte]

In Races of faerun they don't. And the latest book trumps the older ones.

I don't have the players guide to faerun in front of me, and can't access the wizards site from work. I do happen to have Races of Faerun here with me though.

[Emperor Tippy]

In Races of faerun they don't. And the latest book trumps the older ones.

Is the outsider (native) type listed in any 3.5 book? Yes it is.

The Otherworldly feat makes Outsider (Native) your type. You gain all the benefits of that.

EDIT: Outsider type is in the MM. Native is a subtype.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I've always figured it was an unwritten rule that things like free proficiency based on your type were based on if you had HD of that type or not. Like an aasimar shouldn't be automatically proficient (although lots of people seem to think they should) but a hound archon should be.

[Like a Lion]

If tieflings and aasimar aren't native outsiders somewhere, that somewhere is wrong; they're native outsiders in the freakin' Monster Manual. It's the only thing that even sort of remotely justifies their LA.

[Duskwither]

I've always figured it was an unwritten rule that things like free proficiency based on your type were based on if you had HD of that type or not. Like an aasimar shouldn't be automatically proficient (although lots of people seem to think they should) but a hound archon should be.

Really? The thought of an Aasimar having free Martial Proficiency is always one of the things that tempted me to actually make a cleric one.

Though, that's probably a good alternative, seeing as how there's a feat in the PGtF that offers proficiency with all Martial Weapons. Or maybe the intent was that it's an awesome feat only available to a select few regions/races? /shrug

[Damionte]

Yeah I'm more concerened with rather or not this feat should be allowed to change your race. I do not believe it is currently meant to. The wording on the 3.0 feat doesn't take the current use of other contemporary abilities into effect.

Most 3.5 feats that give the same ability are written as "considered" a template of such and such type. In other words you can be effected by spells and effects which only effect such and such subtype. Compared to your normal Human/Elf/dwarf whatever sybtype you were before.

The feat you are referencing seems to have been replaced in races of faerun by similar feats which apply to these races.

celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings and so on.

Also the abilities mentioned in the Monster Manual are for generic Outsiders who'm have not been defined in any other way.

In your case I would definately say you fall under ((Unless otherwise noted in a creatures entry))

You have a player class and well defined proficienies skills and hit dice.

The outsider type template is meant to represent a generic outsider you may meet as a random eno****er who does nto have a PC class.

The only ability you shoudl get from that feat is the one it says you get. Mainly Darkvision. Everything else an outsider get's is trumped by your own race 7 class abilities.

EDIT: Quick note, you'll have to forgive me if soem of these responses are hasty or seem to be lacking something. I'm at work and am tossing these replys up in bretween the things I'm "supposed" to be doing. :)

[Jasdoif]

I've always figured it was an unwritten rule that things like free proficiency based on your type were based on if you had HD of that type or not. Like an aasimar shouldn't be automatically proficient (although lots of people seem to think they should) but a hound archon should be.

Well, it's a written rule that humanoids lose the benefits of their type if they don't have racial HD. The other types have no such statement, however, and the FAQ supports that Aasimar and Tieflings retain the martial proficiencies of their Outsider type.

[Ramza00]

I've always figured it was an unwritten rule that things like free proficiency based on your type were based on if you had HD of that type or not. Like an aasimar shouldn't be automatically proficient (although lots of people seem to think they should) but a hound archon should be.

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Why then would the Humanoid entry have the part I bolded? With your logic it would be Simple Weapons, for Character Class would overwrite it if the character class allowed more than simple weapons.

[Damionte]

That reminds me... what Race is the character in question?

[Ramza00]

Remember the Otherwordly is a lvl 1 only feat, due to the fact it is supposed to recognize innate abilities. It has this special qualifer.

Special: You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat.

Only humans (a certain subrace) and elfs (two certain subraces), and Spirit Folk can take this feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm sorry about this but your wrong.

Yeah I'm more concerened with rather or not this feat should be allowed to change your race. I do not believe it is currently meant to. The wording on the 3.0 feat doesn't take the current use of other contemporary abilities into effect.

None of this matters at all. All that matters is what the feat says it does, which is changes your type to outsider and your subtype to native.

Most 3.5 feats that give the same ability are written as "considered" a template of such and such type. In other words you can be effected by spells and effects which only effect such and such subtype. Compared to your normal Human/Elf/dwarf whatever sybtype you were before.

No one cares one iota what other 3.5 feats do. We care what this feat does.

The feat you are referencing seems to have been replaced in races of faerun by similar feats which apply to these races.

celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings and so on.

Does RoF say that those feats replace Otherworldly? No. Therefore they don't. Bug WotC about an errata.

Also the abilities mentioned in the Monster Manual are for generic Outsiders who'm have not been defined in any other way.

In your case I would definately say you fall under ((Unless otherwise noted in a creatures entry))

You have a player class and well defined proficienies skills and hit dice.

The outsider type template is meant to represent a generic outsider you may meet as a random eno****er who does nto have a PC class.

There is no "outsider template". Outsider is a type. That type has certain benefits.

The only ability you shoudl get from that feat is the one it says you get. Mainly Darkvision. Everything else an outsider get's is trumped by your own race 7 class abilities.

Stop with the wishful thinking. One thing the feat gives you is the outsider type. That gives you various other things.

[rant]
I'm tired of people saying how stuff should be or was intended to be where it concerns RAW issues. All that matters is what is said. Yes it is most likely broken beyond belief. Yes it should be changed.

But that doesn't matter.
[/rant]

[Ramza00]

Now was the feat supposed to give you the martial weapon proficiency as RAI that is a different question than does the feat give you martial weapon proficiency RAW (which it does give via RAW).

We have no evidence on the RAI, and because I say so, or I think it would be more balanced doesn't count.

[Duskwither]

Yeah, I agree with Tippy there on every point.

That reminds me... what Race is the character in question?

Sun Elf. From Evermeet.

[Damionte]

The forums took a dump on me in the middle of my typing. :(

Anyway here's the second attekpt at this post.. Haha

Now was the feat supposed to give you the martial weapon proficiency as RAI that is a different question than does the feat give you martial weapon proficiency RAW (which it does give via RAW).

We have no evidence on the RAI, and because I say so, or I think it would be more balanced doesn't count.

Actually that's the only thing that does count. What you and yours feels is right for "your" game. My arguments are based on the principle that the OP either as a GM or as aplayer will have to actually take this feat back to a real table of players and decide as a group rather this feet as he interprets it is ok to let into the game as is.

Everything is this game goes back to <Rule-Zero>.

We all understajd that many of the rules as printed have flaws. Otherwise we wouldn't get additional rules revisions. We discuss them to help each other make the game more fun to play for everyone at the table.

If the OP and his group play it one way or the other is up to them. Just offering different viewpoints on it.

[Damionte]

At the same time though I believe I've already solved this one even from a Rules as written standpoint.

The Outsiders discription says "as otherwise stated".

This feat does state which outsider abilities you gain. You gain darkvision.

Otherwise the feat abilities would simply state you become an outside and not listed any specific outsider abilities.

[Ramza00]

Ban the feat outright, in my mind, it is over powered. Else you will be doing as soon as lvl 5, alter self into a dwarven ancestor. (though this also has a major problem with polymorph line of spells). You can get alter self earlier, but this form requires 5 HD.

Str 22, Dex 8, Con 28, DR 10/adamantine, +18 natural armor

At lvl 5 a wizard or sorcerer with this feat is tanking better than a fighter, with comparable strength, without any investment in str via point buy/rolls.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...060704a&page=3

This form is not normally possible since it is an outsider form, with this feat you have access to outsider forms.

[Jack Mann]

Rule zero doesn't change what the other rules say. Rule zero is (ideally) what should be. The RAW is what is. Yes, in a given game, what the DM says is most important. But because that will change from game to game (I had a DM who let my sun elf with otherworldly get all martial weapons, but he was big on the RAW), they are secondary to a discussion on the rules. At best, they should be suggestions.

This is why you were wrong, Damionte. You said that the feat doesn't give the proficiencies. It does. That is what the rules say. It shouldn't, and his DM should probably ignore that part of the feat. But that is not the same thing. Is versus should again.

Terminology matters.