classic literature characters as D&D characters

[elliott20]

The "what would they be" thread mentioned hamlet somewhere within the thread and in the "why level" thread, somebody linked to The Alexandrian's page on power scales.

This got me thinking about the power scale of most classic literature characters we read about. Perhaps, the epic struggle doesn't need to be between lvl 20 characters, but lvl 6's are more than sufficient.

So what would Conan be? Would he in fact be nothing more than a level 7 character with levels of barbarian, fighter, rogue, and some ranger thrown in there? Would Achilles really just be a level 10 fighter with a ton of hitpoints?

It also brings up the questions of power vs. usage. Does an important character within your campaign necessitate to said character having at least 9 levels in something?

thoughts?

[JellyPooga]

Achilles would have, like, DR (Infinite)/heel shot or something...that definitely sounds like something Epic to me...

[elliott20]

or perhaps he just had some way of getting a DR of 5/- or some such, and most arrow attacks from the level 1 mooks usually do not do enough damage to even cause enough to damage to register on him.

[Tengu]

10/heel at least, a DR of 5 means that an arrow shot from a longbow will still hurt you 37,5% of the time.

[Skyserpent]

Leonytas, level 20 badass... no really, more like a 10 Fighter or so... with all the Phalanx feats and some pretty gnarly Dex to make it without armor...

[Rumda]

10/heel at least, a DR of 5 means that an arrow shot from a longbow will still hurt you 37,5% of the time.

for effective immunity to weapon damage it would have to be at least DR 18/heel to withstand a great axe from a raging 18 str barbarian with heavy fortification built in to prevent crits and sneak attack, but then theres power attack....

[Tengu]

I think that it's a common agreement that Leonidas, when translated to DND, is a Warblade using mostly Iron Heart.

for effective immunity to weapon damage it would have to be at least DR 18/heel to withstand a great axe from a raging 18 str barbarian with heavy fortification built in to prevent crits and sneak attack, but then theres power attack....

That's true. Classic literature does not translate well to DND. Well, actually, nothing apart from DND novels translates well to DND.

[Beleriphon]

Leonytas, level 20 badass... no really, more like a 10 Fighter or so... with all the Phalanx feats and some pretty gnarly Dex to make it without armor...

No, Leonidas would probably be a 5th level fight, maybe 6th level depending on what feats you want to give him.

[elliott20]

to me, I think that the whole optimizing a character thing becomes a lot more relevant at lower levels.

[Tengu]

No, Leonidas would probably be a 5th level fight, maybe 6th level depending on what feats you want to give him.

The "most people in the world are level 1" approach, I see. I personally prefer the opposite - level 1 is for squires, novices, apprentice wizards etc, level 2 means little experience, if you're over 18 (in a typical fantasy/medieval setting, might be more or less in others) then you're probably level 3.

[elliott20]

well, from my understanding, gaining XP is much easier in 3.5 than in 2E, which means that if you really want to, the "level 1 = apprentice, level 3 = adult" approach can work.

however, this means you have to really work to alter some of the assumptions put down in the DMG.

[SpiderBrigade]

See, the problem with this is that most people will assume that literary (especially mythological) characters are forced to get the abilities they have the same way a PC would get them. For instance, yes, Achilles has some kind of crazy damage reduction.

This is because he has a special template, the "Styx-dipped" template, which provides Damage Reduction: Infinity/Heel Wounds.

Of course Achilles is a bit special in the first place, being half-Nereid as he is. So it becomes really almost impossible to assign him a level at all. Is he so hardcore because he's level 18? Or does he just have huge bonuses to strength and dexterity from his templates? Hard to say.

[Matthew]

That's right. The DMG assumes that most NPC Classed NPCs won't go beyond Third Level over the course of their lifetime, with those in the most dangerous environments being a couple of levels higher. Spread that out over a lifetime of seventy years and you end up with one level every fifteen or twenty years.

Achilles, of course, is no ordinary man, like most of the Heroes he is descended from the Olympians. In his case his mother Thetis is the daughter of Poseidon.

The Heel thing has nothing to do with level and everything to do with his mother's fear that he would be killed in battle.

[JellyPooga]

The Heel thing has nothing to do with level and everything to do with his mother's fear that he would be killed in battle.

But translated into d&d terms, being what he is would probably give him an epic ECL, regardless of his actual class levels. In fact, given how he dies (single poisoned arrow to the heel), he probably doesn't have all that many class levels (and therefore: he has low HP/Fort save)...most of his fighting ability probably came from the fact that he didn't have to worry about being hit by his opponents.

[Nota Biene]

Had to chime in, as I'm a classics nut. Achilles being dipped in the Styx to become immune to weapons actually isn't in Homer, and it is simply part of the folkloric tradition. My professor points out that the Illiad has a lot more meaning if you disregard the "Styx-dipped" template, since his actions in the war demonstrate actuall courage instead of merely a knowledge of his own invincibility. That said, "Styx-dipped" would be an awesome template. Regardless, Achilles has a lot of hit points, many feats, and probably powerful martial maneuvers. If anyone deserves 15+ character levels, it's him.

[Lapak]

I think that it's a common agreement that Leonidas, when translated to DND, is a Warblade using mostly Iron Heart.

Not White Raven? Much of his strength comes from his warriors, and much of their strength flows from his leadership.

[SpiderBrigade]

That's a really good point about the ECL, JellyPooga. Of course, the characters from the Iliad (with one "L") are all pretty bad poster boys for the "most people are low level" argument anyway, since they tend to be half-divine, or at least heavily god-favored in some way. These guys are legendary heroes, and could be in their teens levelwise.

Someone like Leonidas, though, we're getting into an era where we have actual histories, and the characters are no longer scions of gods. The leaders of the time (including, contrary to some popular memes, several capable Athenian commanders) should probably be compared to the celebrated generals of our own time (Lee, Patton, etc) rather than the legends of the Iliad. These guys are capable, smart, good fighters - but not superhuman. Level 5 for the best, in that model of things.

[Matthew]

But translated into d&d terms, being what he is would probably give him an epic ECL, regardless of his actual class levels. In fact, given how he dies (single poisoned arrow to the heel), he probably doesn't have all that many class levels (and therefore: he has low HP/Fort save)...most of his fighting ability probably came from the fact that he didn't have to worry about being hit by his opponents.

True enough, Class Level is what I had meant. As I said, these guys are half Divine, their ECL is potentially through the roof in D&D terms, though perhaps they are using some sort of variant rule...

Nota Biene is quite right, though, Achilles and his Heel are part of the folklore tradition, as is the Trojan Horse, if I recall correctly (though I think it is mentioned in Virgil). A lot of how you choose to stat out these mythological Heroes is going to depend on what mythology you accept, which parts you reject and how you interpret the texts.

It's worth mentioning that (A)D&D assumed such Heroes were twenty levels or more, not the greatest guide, but a reasonable precedent for assuming Epic ECL in a default game.

[Tengu]

Someone like Leonidas, though, we're getting into an era where we have actual histories, and the characters are no longer scions of gods. The leaders of the time (including, contrary to some popular memes, several capable Athenian commanders) should probably be compared to the celebrated generals of our own time (Lee, Patton, etc) rather than the legends of the Iliad. These guys are capable, smart, good fighters - but not superhuman. Level 5 for the best, in that model of things.

I think we're discussing Leonidas from 300 here, though, since this incarnation of him was mentioned first time in the thread. And what he does in the movie/comic is borderline superhuman.

[elliott20]

but then again, the things that a level 10 human fighter can do ALSO borderlines on super human. (though, not as superhuman as say, a wizard. but that's a whole different thread)

[Tengu]

Around level 10 is the best level for most fictional characters that were powerful, but not overly powerful. I didn't say that they have to built on level 20, or epic.

[Piccamo]

Jack Burton
Level 5 Fighter
Level 2 Rogue

He's that awesome that he took the dead level in fighter.
Also, his bonus feats were all used on Toughness.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I think we're discussing Leonidas from 300 here, though, since this incarnation of him was mentioned first time in the thread. And what he does in the movie/comic is borderline superhuman.

You're a fighter that fights without getting an armor bonus? This is MADNESS!!

~THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

[Tengu]

You're a fighter that fights without getting an armor bonus? This is MADNESS!!

~THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

Heh.

Though probably his helmet and cloak are so awesome that they count at full plate.

[Lemur]

Overestimating the power of characters from fiction is pretty common, yes. I remember that article, and while I wouldn't say that Aragorn is anywhere near level 20, I think 5 may be a little low for him. I'd probably peg him at around level 8, while the rest of the fellowship is somewhere under that (excluding Gandalf, who's in a league of his own).

In the case of Achilles, I'd say that he's at the point where normal soldiers can't realisitically hit his armor class. He's not immune to weapon damage, but he's hard to hit, and the ones that do don't really deal much damage relative to his hitpoints.

I can think of one character who deserves to be 20th level, or possibly epic, and that's Sun Wukong. He can fly on clouds, beats up the gods for fun, and can literally pulverize a human into the texture of hamburger meat with a single hit from his staff.

[Jayabalard]

So what would Conan be? Would he in fact be nothing more than a level 7 character with levels of barbarian, fighter, rogue, and some ranger thrown in there? Would Achilles really just be a level 10 fighter with a ton of hitpoints?

The two AD&D conan modules had Conan somewhere around level 14, levels split between fighter with a few levels of thief (barbarian didn't show up in AD&D 1ed except in unearthed arcana); the module was for characters between 10 and 14, and it had him as well as some of his companions statted out. Conan Unchained (CB1), Against Darkness (CB2), and Red Sonja Unconquered (RS1).

They also added some rules for luck points, and had some magic items that didn't really fit very well into the D&D mold of magic items (Conan's sword iirc)

[SpiderBrigade]

Overestimating the power of characters from fiction is pretty common, yes. I remember that article, and while I wouldn't say that Aragorn is anywhere near level 20, I think 5 may be a little low for him. I'd probably peg him at around level 8, while the rest of the fellowship is somewhere under that (excluding Gandalf, who's in a league of his own).

Yeah, Gandalf is some kind of outsider at the very least, and possibly has some divine ranks as well. He just doesn't use them very often.

I can think of one character who deserves to be 20th level, or possibly epic, and that's Sun Wukong. He can fly on clouds, beats up the gods for fun, and can literally pulverize a human into the texture of hamburger meat with a single hit from his staff.

Sun Wukong aka Monkey aka Son Goku definitely gets to be really high level. But then, he's not a person, but rather a trickster spirit.

[elliott20]

yeah the problem with Sun Wukong is kind of the same as the "progency of the Gods". He got his powers not because he trained at it or something, but because he just GOT them. (Whether through eating those stupid peaches that make you uber or what have you)

[Glyphic]

All this love for Achilles and none for Hector. Come on!

The Greeks attack and drive the Trojans back. Hector must now go out to lead a counter-attack. His wife, Andromache, porting their son, Astyanax, intercepts him at the gate, pleading with him not to go out for her sake as well as his son's. Hector knows that Troy and the house of Priam are doomed to fall and that their gloomy fate will be to die or go into slavery in a foreign land. With understanding, compassion, and tenderness he explains that he cannot personally refuse to fight, and comforts her with the idea that no one can take him until it is his time to go.

He also went toe to toe with Achilles- but Achilles has Athena behind him on his side. One man verus a half god with a gods help? Not to mention Achilles' mature response to Hectors plea to be returned to Priam for a rightful burial (Greeks and Trojans were pretty good about this. No burial or a soiled corpse equals no entrance to the Elysium Fields-effective robbing that person of all their good deeds of glory or honor.)

Achilles then slit Hector's heels, and took the girdle that Ajax had given him and passed it through the slits of the heels. He then fastened the girdle to his chariot and drove his fallen enemy through the dust to the Danaan camp. For the next few days Achilles mistreated the body

Me? Hector is falling into a good and devout, LG Fighter Maybe level 7-10. specifically feeling fear when he has to fight Achilles rules out some for of Greek Pseudo Paladin.

Achilles falls into some barbarian/fighter mix. He -definately- has a rage ability. Give him some weird template, and make him about the same level. ECL 13-15

[Matthew]

Don't forget Hector is descended from Zeus [Hector, son of Priam, son of Laomedon, son of Ilus, son of Tros, son of Erichthonius, son of Dardanus, son of Zeus]. He should probably have a Template of some kind.