A Monk/Paladin really can beat an entire party

[Glome]

I thought this was sort of humorous how this dnd session pretty much played out the general idea of Miko beating the OOTS. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864833

Of course the characters are different and the Monk/Paladin in this case isn't a two weapon fighter, but it's still pretty awesome and shows it can be done.

[TheOOB]

Even with a few extra levels over the party, a monk paladin should not be able to beat well built party.

Apart from the fact that both monk and paladin are fairly weak classes with very little synergy, they have the huge disadvantage that the party likely has access to clerical and wizard magic, while their opposition has access to stunted paladin.

Remember, the only reason Miko won was because of a freak thunderstorm (go drunken thor!) and because Durkon just sat there.

[Like a Lion]

Also because the rogue didn't have any way of getting out of grapples, because, hey, that sounds like a really good thing for a rogue (weak against grappling) to have. The (non-flying, apparently) wizard threw a lightning bolt, for chrissakes, rather than something that'd do some good.

[LotharBot]

That thread was made of win, except for the parts made of whine. Their party didn't play the encounter very well, while the paladin played the encounter perfectly. Some people in that thread are saying "kick him out" or "your DM sucks"... but what they should be saying is "learn from that guy, he obviously knows how to play." Anybody who can take a character like that and destroy a party like that deserves some respect.

You really can beat a poorly played party, or even a somewhat decently played party, with an intelligent opponent that knows how to target their weaknesses. Even if that intelligent opponent isn't one of the traditional "power" classes.

I'll be interested to see what happens to that group next week. Some people seem to think the pally player is there to ruin the whole game, but he could also be a plot device the DM dreamed up, and the player might play a more acceptable character once this little excursion is done in a week or two.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In both cases, it is a case of a prepared and well-strategized Paladin overcoming an unprepared and disorganized group. Both cases involved a character planning against the weaknesses of his enemies and playing on surprise and overconfidence. "Shock and awe", I believe is the phrase.

In short, both well-played and awesome, but quite frustrating for the attacked parties. Hopefully, the bad guys will learn from this experience and improve their tactics with their next characters.

Note: I do not approve of such a thing as in the Wizards board post happening in the course of a campaign, especially at the hands of a player, rather than an NPC. I just think it was an awesome fight scene.

EDIT: I am surprised the Paladin took all the way to fifth. It's clearly a Monk-major build. I mean, who uses Deflect Arrows?

[Kurald Galain]

Remember, the only reason Miko won was because of a freak thunderstorm (go drunken thor!) and because Durkon just sat there.

Not to mention that Belkar was grappled from the beginning, and Elan also just sat there without contributing, and the only spell V didn't fail was casting a fireball at Roy... Yes, if most of your opponents are ineffective you can win :)

[banjo1985]

Wow thats a pretty well played paladin! I must say our GM always used to try and quell any chances of PC vs PC fighting, but I will always remember the end to one campaign we had.

My characetr was a Tiefling that aspired to become a vampire, you know the classic whiney emo that paladins just hate. Another party member was a "holier than thou" paladin, who had just happened to have acquired a demon arm from a "demon morph device" down in the lower hells (his player was never one for coherent backstorys). This paladin went through the campaign bemoaning my characters slightly evil actions, conveniently papering over the fact his demon arm was affecting his soul. Our GM played up to this conflict really well, and towards the end of the campaign he made things come to a head.

We met a vampire scholar, who had vital information for us to do with our campaign ending confrontation with a god. The paladin waited for the guy to spill the information then failed his Will save to keep control of his graft. He lashed out killing the vampire and my guy went off his top, rushing into comabt without much hope, a weedy rogue going head long into a paladin of the same level, no matter how angry he was this was suicidal!

Amazingly my Tiefling won, and the campaign went on to end really well, with the paladins former player rolling for the god in the final encounter, where my poor guy died, just showing that evil doesn't always win!

I apologise if I've bored anyone with this post, I just thought I'd share my experience of PC vs PC combat done in a good way witha strong GM

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Many thanks for the link; that was really entertaining.

[Saph]

That was awesome.

It proves the point I keep on trying to make in optimisation arguments - how smart a player is is way, way more important than the character class they play. But even I wouldn't expect a paladin to be able to take on an entire five-character party like that. Perfect strategy.

- Saph

[Roderick_BR]

Now that's a paladin to fear. He was ready to fight the group, and took them by surprise, negating some of their stronger members before they notice what's going on.

I agree, the wizard could have done something different, like using a wall of force (if he had it) or Fly, to get away from him, since it didn't seems like he had any ranged weapon. And seeing as he was lucky in a reflex save, anything with a save would be passed. Even if the paladin used another sphere of force, the wizard would have time to recover. The way he defeated the berserker was classic. Just wait him to tire out. The rogue simply failed in having ranks in escape, too bad for him.
The archer had problems with high HP and damage reduction, nothing to be surprised about.
And how he defeated the ur-priest: "surrender, you have no chance of victory" Was pure win.

[InsaneOrb]

Really, I think the GM should find a way to compel the character to work with the party ('Orders from above'). Unfortunately, the whiny evil characters will probably betray him just out of resentment.

[Arbitrarity]

So far, all of the items the paladin had total 37.5K, out of 49K. This asumes +1 armour, no enhancement on weapon, and doesn't take into account barding.

9500 gp of this was on 1 use items, and 6000 was assumed to be a 1/day displacement.

And another 5000 is on another bead of force.

Using 1 shot items really gives hefty advantages, but 9.5K on 1 fight? No hope.

I bet codzilla could do better .

[Renx]

Mmh, the cleric had no Dispel Magicks? Shame on him.

[Rad]

So far, all of the items the paladin had total 37.5K, out of 49K. This asumes +1 armour, no enhancement on weapon, and doesn't take into account barding.

9500 gp of this was on 1 use items, and 6000 was assumed to be a 1/day displacement.

And another 5000 is on another bead of force.

Using 1 shot items really gives hefty advantages, but 9.5K on 1 fight? No hope.

I bet codzilla could do better .

I do not think that he, or the DM, seriously expected the character to go on with the campaign. It was clearly a one-shot character, hence not one you'll want to plan long-term.

[Quietus]

The only problem now is.. what happens after a couple of days when that frenzied berserker has a bit more HP? That Paladin, without his Stoneskin, Displacement, and unable to yet declare Dodge to take advantage of Elusive Target, is just a sack of meat in front of a frenzied berserker using shock trooper.

[skywalker]

What if he marches behind the frenzied berserker? What if he continually beats the tar out of the guy to keep his subdual damage high? If he's that smart, he has a reach weapon, which means he can get AoO on a charge. His horse is also still around. He's probably also got some cool prisoner taking item from that extra gold they were talking about.

I think this encounter shows that there's a reason why Wizards tells you it's bad to be evil. It's fun but you can't win an overwhelming encounter(which is in my opinion one of the most fun things you can do in D&D) because your "intelligent" characters will cop to type and bolt at first opportunity.

It was also incredibly intelligently played by the paladin.

[Quietus]

What if he marches behind the frenzied berserker? What if he continually beats the tar out of the guy to keep his subdual damage high? If he's that smart, he has a reach weapon, which means he can get AoO on a charge. His horse is also still around. He's probably also got some cool prisoner taking item from that extra gold they were talking about.

I think this encounter shows that there's a reason why Wizards tells you it's bad to be evil. It's fun but you can't win an overwhelming encounter(which is in my opinion one of the most fun things you can do in D&D) because your "intelligent" characters will cop to type and bolt at first opportunity.

It was also incredibly intelligently played by the paladin.

If he marches behind the Berserker : Berserker turns around and mauls.
Continually beating the tar out of him : Evil act, loss of Paladin status.
Reach Weapon/AoO : Not in a surprise round, when the Paladin's flat footed
Horse : ....And?

The only thing I can see of all of those that's viable is the idea of a potentially cool prisoner-taking item.

::Edit:: I'm not saying that it wasn't well played by the Paladin. I'm just saying that he's spent a lot of money on one-shot items, and unless the local jail is a day or two away, he's gonna be in trouble.

[Neon Knight]

I think this encounter shows that there's a reason why Wizards tells you it's bad to be evil. It's fun but you can't win an overwhelming encounter(which is in my opinion one of the most fun things you can do in D&D) because your "intelligent" characters will cop to type and bolt at first opportunity.

I disagree. Evil characters can have loyalty to one another. Being evil usually means you consider yourself and closest loved ones more important than anyone else. Being evil does not mean you have to be 100% selfish.

It is true that evil characters tend to be more selfish, but I could easily see a group of evil characters who are friends with one another deciding that attempting to save their comrades is worth the risk.

Even one who works entirely by logic like an Evil construct could decide that it would be better to fight with and try to save his allies rather than flee at first sight of hardship. After all, if even one ally survives the fight, he is better off than if he ran and ended up with no allies.

[Lapak]

The only thing I can see of all of those that's viable is the idea of a potentially cool prisoner-taking item.

Like... oh, say, lengths of rope or chains?

I mean, he's a religious-bounty-hunter paladin, specifically sent out to capture dangerous baddies and bring 'em back alive. I have to imagine his saddlebags have manacles and chains sufficient to restrain a giant.

[elliott20]

plus, if he doesn't allow the barb to get bed rest, he's probably not recovering that many HP everyday.

[barawn]

The only problem now is.. what happens after a couple of days when that frenzied berserker has a bit more HP?

Why would the barbarian heal?

In order to heal, you need to have a full night's rest. The paladin just needs to march them hard, and prevent a full night's rest. That's not evil - in fact, it very well might be lawful, if ordered to bring them back as soon as possible.

[Draz74]

This is a cool story, but the Monk/Paladin was really effectively CR 12 or 13 with equipment considered.

I mean, the guy admits that the Beads of Force and possibly Stone Salve were in addition to Wealth by Level. That's pretty significant. Plus, the Paladin now has no more Stone Salve; it was a hefty one-use expenditure. Plus, it sounds like the Displacement armor was an overpowered custom item. I mean, a Cloak of Major Displacement all by itself exceeds the WBL of a Level 10 character. Ridiculous for armor to have the same effect (possibly with a slightly shorter duration) for a reasonable fraction of the character's budget.

Still, well-played and entertaining. Good ol' Elusive Target ftw.