Questions

[Neon Knight]

I'd like to ask the inhabitants of this fair forum a few questions.

1. Do you hold the Paladin to a higher standard alignment wise than you would a Lawful Good Fighter?

2. Do you hold the Paladin to a higher standard alignment wise than you would a Lawful Good Cleric?

3. Can all actions have a clear good/evil tag applied to them, or are some gray/neutral?

4. Are characters the sum of all their actions, their beliefs, or a combination of both?

[Matthew]

1. No, but in addition he must obey his code of conduct (i.e. performing an Evil Act may cause the Paladin to fall, but it probably won't change his Alignment).

2. No, but see above. Most Clerics have also to obey some Church dictated code of conduct, but that depends on the campaign.

3. Many actions are Neutral

4. Alignment is a game mechanic descriptor for the intentions, beliefs and actions of any given Character

[Grug]

In my games, I decided that commiting one evil act doesn't make you evil, just like commiting one good act doesn't make you good. Except for paladins, who's moral codes are much stricter.

[Matthew]

Interestingly a common error when interpreting the Fall of a Paladin. A Paladin may commit an Evil Act and Fall without changing Alignment by the RAW.

[PsyBlade]

The Paladin is held to a higher code. Of course, this is because he is supposed to be a paragon of the seven virtues.

Varies by deity.

There are neutral

Their actions are as important as the why. If they are honestly trying to do good, I'm sure you know I intend this to go.

[TheOOB]

I don't hold anyone to any standards of alignment. Alignment is simply a measure of how a character acts, if a lawful good fighter is acting lawful neutral, I'll tell them to change their sheet. If this change would affect class abilities I'll giev them alittle forwarning.

Keep in mind that the paladin code has nothing to do with their alingment. A paladin must be lawful good AND follow the code. The vast, vast majority of fallen paladins are still lawful good, they just broke the code once.

[Neon Knight]

Additional questions:

5. Where does the paragon of the seven virtues come from? I could find no mention of this in my player's handbook.

6. Does a person who commits a good deed that ends in evil or an evil result change or shift alignment? If this person in question where a Paladin, would he fall?

7. Now the remove the mechanics. Is a person who commits a good deed that ends in evil or an evil result a bad and/or evil person? If not, then why is the reverse (a person who commits an evil action to do good) evil and/or bad? They both have good intentions.

8. If a person committed an evil deed as a last resort (as in all other courses of action are inaccessible/extinguished/ already pursued and unsuccessful) in order to lessen an evil result or to nullify an evil result, is that person bad and/or evil? What if this person regretted that action, and if they had any other non evil action available would have pursued that course of action?

[Matthew]

5. Not sure. Complete Divine, perhaps?

6. No. Alignment change occurs when Alignment and Character no longer correspond, not for one wrong step. However, a Paladin who commits an Evil Act Falls (though he probably will not change Alignment). A Good Act that results in Evil (accidently) does not cause the Fall.

7. An Evil Act for a greater good is not the same as a Good Act that ends in Evil. Again, one mis step does not usually an Alignment change cause. However, a Paladin who performs an Evil Act, for whatever reason, Falls.

8. Once again, one Evil Act on its own is generally not enough to change the Alignment of a Character. Regardless, a Paladin Falls if he performs an Evil Act.

[MeklorIlavator]

Just to clarify #5, the Paladins code is meant to make him/her a paragon(as in the primary example) of the seven virtues. The Code itself is suggest this, with Chastity, Abstinence, Liberality, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility all either directly or indirectly mentioned as good choices for inclusion it the code.

[Neon Knight]

Just to clarify #5, the Paladins code is meant to make him/her a paragon(as in the primary example) of the seven virtues. The Code itself is suggest this, with Chastity, Abstinence, Liberality, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility all either directly or indirectly mentioned as good choices for inclusion it the code.

Could I have a page number please? I seem to be unable to locate this information in the Player's Handbook. I'm probably skipping over it repeatedly by mistake and deserve a "What, are you blind?" comment.

However, I think the can do no Evil deed or will Fall bit is enough to clarify that he is intended as a Paragon. I had forgotten that an evil act alone was required for a paladin to fall. Thanks for clearing that up, Matthew. You get an invisible cookie for your invisible avatar.

[Inyssius Tor]

5. Complete Champion, perhaps? It sure as hell isn't in Core...

6. One evil act does not make an Evil alignment-shift. If the paladin had no idea about (or couldn't reasonably have been expected to find out/know) the ultimate result of his actions, he/she wouldn't fall (but would probably be very depressed afterward, with a great whopping dose of existential angst).

7. One evil act does not make an evil person, and an act that results in evil isn't even an evil act anyway. If someone gives money to a beggar, and the beggar is killed for the money that night, the act of charity wouldn't be evil (unless they knew he would die because of it); no one can be reasonably expected to know the full impact of every action upon the universe as a whole!
An evil act with good results doesn't make the act good; in the first place, the actor isn't god, and doesn't know his evil will result in a good-ward shift in the balance of all things. Further, he can't judge (no one can) whether the eventual good will outweigh the immediate evil.

8. Of course not. One evil act does not make an Evil alignment-shift, and an evil act where there is no other option (not even death) barely contributes to an Evil alignment switch at all (although I think it would make paladins Fall, since they have that Code).

[PaladinBoy]

1. and 2. Alignment-wise, no. But they do have their code which LG Fighters and Clerics do not share.

3. Some actions are grey areas. Very few things, in fact, can be labeled always Good or always Evil, IMHO.

4. IMO, alignment represents the sum total of a character's intents, actions, and beliefs.

5. I never saw it as a paragon of the seven virtues matter, really. More as the champion of ultimate and unimpeachable Good. I suppose for some people, that means paragon of the seven virtues.

6. No, to both. Good intent and action generally means Good. If due to the intervention of another party or simple chance the result of Good intent and action is evil, then that evil is not the person or paladin's fault. A paladin would not fall for that. If the evil consequences were due to negligence or incompetence, then it's more of a grey area. A paladin could conceivably fall for that, depending on the degree of negligence involved.

7. Again, inadvertent or opposed evil resulting from good actions and intent is not the fault of the good person. He/she did not want it to happen and may have even worked against the evil, depending on the situation. Reverse it, however, and it's not true. That good person that commits an evil act with good intentions has the blame for that evil to carry. He can try to absolve the guilt by saying that it was for the greater good, but that doesn't remove the fact that he has committed an evil act. Doing such things more than once would, IMHO, throw into serious doubt the person's morality and desire to avoid evil. Believing that it may be necessary to do evil for the greater good makes it all the more likely that a situation will appear to require evil measures. And the number of situations that truly require evil is rather low, I think. If such situations even exist.

8. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they were pure evil. But they have still been driven to evil, which is a failure of their abilities at least. After all, if they had been more capable, they would have been able to forestall the moral problem. I also believe that there is always a good answer. It may be idealistic, but I think it's better than discounting the presence of a good answer, since the latter makes it more likely that the good answer will be ignored. Of course, that means that resorting to evil is likely a failure of morals as well. If they do it once, regret it, try to make restitution, and demonstrate that they are willing to stay good, then they are probably still good. And you might be able to skip the restitution, depending on the situation. If it happened more than once, I would begin to doubt the last bit. Finally, if they never regretted the evil act in the first place, I would probably not believe that they were good to begin with.

[Kurald Galain]

1.I don't do alignment. Fighters may voluntarily adopt any kind of honor code or dishonor code, but don't get penalties for breaking it. Paladins have a mandatory honor code, and their god is not pleased by breakage.

2.Clerics or priests of that particular god have the same strictness. Most other deities are less strict, although I've been known to de-druid a character who displeased the nature god.

3.That is why I don't do alignment.

4.Mostly their actions. Intent counts for a bit, but as we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.