Creating a nice Munchkin

[Random NPC]

I'm bored and I wanted to play with you guys. Let's create Munchkins. To further empower our Munchkins let's go Gestalt.

I'll start

1st Cleric//Wizard
2nd Cleric//Wizard
3rd Cleric//Wizard
4th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
5th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
6th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
7th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
8th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
9th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
10th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
11th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
12th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
13th Mystic Theurge//Duskblade
14th Cleric//Duskblade
15th Wizard//Duskblade
16th Cleric//Duskblade
17th Cleric//Eldritch Knight
18th Cleric//Eldritch Knight
19th Cleric//Eldritch Knight
20th Cleric//Eldritch Knight

The Eldritch Knight would have focus on the wizard spell list.

My reasoning? Well, I love Duskblades and I especially love their ability to deliver touch spells with their weapons.

What do you think?

It's tame considering other builds I've seen but even I can get cheese-overload

[Glorfindel]

Ehm ... IIRC, you cannot use both sides of a Gestalt build to qualify for a PrC (like Mystic Theurge). Even if that's not true, a 3rd level Sorcerer doesn't get 2nd level spells, so your build is invalid.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ehm ... IIRC, you cannot use both sides of a Gestalt build to qualify for a PrC (like Mystic Theurge).

RAW you can.
RAI, they specifically tell you that as a DM you shouldn't allow it.
RAU you almost always can't.

And your better off with Wizard//Archivist

Or Wizard//Ranger

PrC the wizard with IotSFV, Incantatrix, and Archmage.

Wizard//Archivist has access to every spell in the game.

Wizard//Ranger has 3 good saves, good skill points, full BAB, a d8 HD, and some extra ranger spells (some of which are nice)

[Dhavaer]

Ehm ... IIRC, you cannot use both sides of a Gestalt build to qualify for a PrC (like Mystic Theurge).

No, you can't use both sides of a Gestalt to take levels in a PrC at the same time. Pre-reqs are fine.

[Swooper]

*Shakes his head and waits for someone to mention the Ur-Priest*

[Damionte]

Your build is still invalid due to the Sorc thing not qualifying at lvl 3. Your build also assumes that your GM will allow you to Gestault into Mystic Theurge without adding in a balancer, like an 8 skill rank.

If we're going to play your game what are the rules?

There's not much point to playing in an anything goes atmosphere. As we're not proving anything at all. Anyone can be a super munchkin if we have no rules to work with.

I may as well just lvl

1 Monk / Fighter
2 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
3 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
4 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
5 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
6 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
7 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
8 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
9 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad
10 Uber God / Uber Gods Dad

Uber God is a custom homebrew class I came up with on the toilet, uber god's dad is ... his dad and is ofcourse uber.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Kobold Paladin 1.
Game, set, match.
Artificer//Pretty much anything, alternately.

[Callix]

You want cheese? Rogue//Spelltheif.
1d6/level on every attack? No prob. Fragile, and lacking something in BAB, but oh, the damage capacity! And stolen spells! Borrow a Divine Power off a cleric//something and truly own.

[Fascisticide]

Don't forget to take the feats Sword Foo and Wack'em all, and Own goal too is great to stay alive if you see the rest of the party as replaceable.

[Pauwel]

You want cheese? Rogue//Spelltheif.
1d6/level on every attack? No prob. Fragile, and lacking something in BAB, but oh, the damage capacity! And stolen spells! Borrow a Divine Power off a cleric//something and truly own.

Doesn't work. You use the fastest of the sneak attack progressions (the rogue's), you don't add them together.

[ravenkith]

Paladin 2/Ranger 18//Sorceror 15/Abjurant Champion 5/ is just chunky, especially if you allow mage armor to work with the class ability.

VOP Druid//Monk is just plain nice. Combine with Warshaper for S&G.

Scout//Warlock can be good, with the right feats and invocations.

But Cleric of Mystra//Martial Rogue is just plain wrong on so many levels, especially when taking the Initiate of Mystra and divine metamagic:persistent feats, and the Spell and Magic Domains. Pick up some Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to boost your turn attempts to insane numbers, letting you persist as many buffs as you want within the shell of an antimagic field.

Nothing says lovin' like a duelwielding cleric with active buffs when the enemy has none.

[Rasumichin]

Your build is still invalid due to the Sorc thing not qualifying at lvl 3. Your build also assumes that your GM will allow you to Gestault into Mystic Theurge without adding in a balancer, like an 8 skill rank.

It's not munchkin if it's just über, but legitimate within RAW.
To qualify for munchkin, you have to break the rules and bribe your DM into not noticing it.

[Dan_Hemmens]

If you go Rogue/Ninja Gestalt do you get full progression for both Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike, despite their being completely identical?

[Indon]

If you go Rogue/Ninja Gestalt do you get full progression for both Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike, despite their being completely identical?

Actually, yes, you do.

Which is kind of scary if you take a couple levels of Monk and a few levels of Scout, because then with a few feats you can have Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, and Monk Unarmed Damage as if you were a level 18-20 character.

Hardest punch-to-the-kidney ever.

Edit: Or I guess you could use Improved Manyshot and like, kill the bajeesus out of things instead.

[Random NPC]

Sometimes 4 am makes a Sorcerer out of a Wizard. I meant Wizard instead of Sorcerer.

Rasumichin got it right. It's cheesy if you just go RAW. You are doing a questionable character while still everything checks out (CoDzillas are cheesy and not Munchkins). If you start bending the rules a little you start going Munchkin and that's how everyone calls foul.

I still say that Mystic Theurge in Gestalt is nice for a Munchkin

[Hypothetical]

Nice Munchkin....

Starting from Level one...

Human Monk....

Level one...
Feat 1) Sacred Vow
Feat 2) Vow of Poverty
Bonus Exalted Feat( Pick anything you can qualify for...)

At Level 1 you have a minimum of AC 18, in clothes...( this of course assumes you didn't get stupid and place your highest roll in , oh say Charisma instead of Wisdom) Can you say, heavy fighter with NO Stealth penalties?
At level 1 you have 2 Attacks...( Flurry of Blows, duh)
At level 2 ( and every even numbered level after) you get a Bonus Exalted feat, upto level 20.

Skills...

Well, it would be really smart to put max points in "Hide", "Move Silently", and "Diplomacy". Even if you don't manage to sneak up on the target, you can usually talk the target into giving up. And if you do manage to sneak up on the target....Hello, surprise round!

Think it through...OK, you're only doing 1D6 damage at Level 1. But with 2 chaces to hit. Your AC is such that you getting hit is nearly impossible ( unless you have a D**k for a DM who is out to kill you and so fudges rolls..., which I don't)....

[Rasumichin]

Nice Munchkin....

Not meaning to nitpick, but, as pointed out before, the term munchkin implies extremely bending or outright breaking the rules.

Not sure if the OP had the same definition in mind, since there's people who refer to powergaming or even normal min/maxing as munchkinism.

At Level 1 you have a minimum of AC 18, in clothes...

Which is a nice thing to have, admittedly, but it's not going to get that much better at higher levels.

That's the best monks can do : not to get hit.
Everything else can be done equally good or -most of the time- better by members of other classes.

Think it through...OK, you're only doing 1D6 damage at Level 1.

Low damage outpout, the monk's middle name.
A problem that gets even worse at mid or higher levels.
Much, much worse.

But with 2 chaces to hit.

If you can do a full attack, yes.
TWF allows the same (or even more, if you play a race with natural bite attack), with more damage potential (greatsword + armor spikes anyone?).

Plus, you don't suck completely if your enemies won't just be standing there, but are actually smart enough to keep on moving, since you can actually do some damage with a normal action.


Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that monks are crap, but they're really, really far from being overpowered.
Plus, your build definitely has absolutely nothing munchkiny about it.

[Droodle]

1 Cleric/Bard
2 Cleric/Bard
3 Cleric/Bard
4 Cleric/Bard
5 Cleric/Bard
6 Cleric/Bard
7 Prestige Paladin*/Bard
8 Prestige Paladin/Bard
9 Prestige Paladin/Bard
10 Prestige Paladin/Bard
11 Prestige Paladin/Sublime Chord
12 Cleric/Sublime Chord
13 Cleric/Sublime Chord
14 Cleric/Sublime Chord
15 Cleric/Sublime Chord
16 Cleric/Sublime Chord
17 Cleric/Sublime Chord
18 Cleric/Sublime Chord
19 Cleric/Sublime Chord
20 Cleric/Sublime Chord

This guy gets all good saves until level 10, unbroken turn progression, a 16 BAB, all the goodies of a level 8 Paladin, 18th level Cleric Casting, and full Arcane Casting with access to both the Sorcerer and Bard spell pools.....and Bardic Music. This guy can do pretty much anything.


*Paladin of Freedom variant

[Piccamo]

At Level 1 you have a minimum of AC 18, in clothes...( this of course assumes you didn't get stupid and place your highest roll in , oh say Charisma instead of Wisdom) Can you say, heavy fighter with NO Stealth penalties?

Who cares about the stealth penalties on a heavy fighter? Heavy fighters don't sneak around. You're not a heavy fighter.

At level 1 you have 2 Attacks...( Flurry of Blows, duh)
At level 2 ( and every even numbered level after) you get a Bonus Exalted feat, upto level 20.

There aren't that many exalted feats worth taking.

Skills...

Well, it would be really smart to put max points in "Hide", "Move Silently", and "Diplomacy". Even if you don't manage to sneak up on the target, you can usually talk the target into giving up. And if you do manage to sneak up on the target....Hello, surprise round!

It will be a while before a monk with heavy MAD and other skills to focus on can reliably succeed on a one-round diplomacy. Before that anyone who comes out of the shadows and starts talking is going to get pummeled. Your surprise round is not all that impressive.

Think it through...OK, you're only doing 1D6 damage at Level 1. But with 2 chaces to hit. Your AC is such that you getting hit is nearly impossible ( unless you have a D**k for a DM who is out to kill you and so fudges rolls..., which I don't)....

I've thought it through...A fighter is doing 2d6 damage at level 1. But only needs 1 chance to hit, with a better chance to hit. His AC is only 16, but he ends encounters by killing things rather than boring them to death. An 18 AC isn't all that hard to hit.

By the way, the fighter probably has a higher strength than you, significantly adding to his damage. Your monk's damage is not going to increase as rapidly and he is going to hit less often than the fighter.

[Indon]

Well, it would be really smart to put max points in "Hide", "Move Silently", and "Diplomacy". Even if you don't manage to sneak up on the target, you can usually talk the target into giving up. And if you do manage to sneak up on the target....Hello, surprise round!

Which you then use Diplomancy with, converting your enemies to friendly before the fight even starts. :P

Edit: Though, focus enough on DEX and then you can stay alive long enough to talk through any fight, even at early levels when your skill ranks are lower.

[Arbitrarity]

Here's mine:

Warforged artificer 1

Adamantine body, and a heavy shield.

AC 21.

Uses a crossbow at +2, 1d8. Uses bane enhancement if time is available to prepare and enemies are known, for +4, 1d8+2d6+2.

For cheese *attempts sneaky rules bending here*. If, I make a weapon part of my body (i.e. weapon graft, illithid graft from FF) since it is part of my body, it is a natural weapon, yes?

Therefore, as a natural weapon, if I am not using that part of my body, I can make secondary natural attacks, yes?

Well... kneeblades, elbowblades, spring loaded wrist blades, armour spikes... etc.

[Bagera]

Artificer//Psychic Warrior

Using all the PW bonus feats for meta magics.